E46 Brake Force Display Demonstration

[az3579]

A while ago, I created a video on the different stages of Brake Force Display. I finally got around to uploading it, and can be viewed here:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3z91w39cuM&feature=youtu.be



If you wish to read the lengthy description I put on describing this technology, the full page is here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3z91w39cuM&feature=youtu.be

[ELCID86]

Nice job BP. I like knowing I have that option enabled.

[danewilson77]

Is break force display, a stock feature?

Sent from my S4 > Mason, OH

[derbo]

BFD is a stock feature in Europe. I think.

[wsmeyer]

Very cool. Really appreciate all the time you guys put in figuring it all out.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk

[az3579]

Is break force display, a stock feature?

Sent from my S4 > Mason, OH

Up to Stage 2, it is a stock feature. Stage 3 is Europe only.


BFD is a stock feature in Europe. I think.

Only Stage 3. Every facelift E46 sedan has Stage 2 here from the factory. On coupes/convertibles it seems to be hit or miss; I see a lot of non-M coupes/convertibles here that have the extra outer ring on the LED tails lit, so there would be no provision for additional lighting. None of the M3's I see with LED tails have that extra ring lit from the factory unless BFD is active, so I don't understand why there's a difference between the M and non-M coupes/verts.

[derbo]

Up to Stage 2, it is a stock feature. Stage 3 is Europe only.



Only Stage 3. Every facelift E46 sedan has Stage 2 here from the factory. On coupes/convertibles it seems to be hit or miss; I see a lot of non-M coupes/convertibles here that have the extra outer ring on the LED tails lit, so there would be no provision for additional lighting. None of the M3's I see with LED tails have that extra ring lit from the factory unless BFD is active, so I don't understand why there's a difference between the M and non-M coupes/verts.


Correct you are BP. I forgot stage 2 was standard on E46. Is it only on facelifted E46? I remember when I went to BMW Teen Driving School program they mentioned the stage 2 brake lights when the ABS hit. I thought that was awesome. When I coded my ALSZ into EV51 (Euro) I didn't see the Stage 3 being active. Oddly enough.

I see plenty of M3s on the track with their stage 2 activating when I chase them :)

I can't wait to see BFD stage 3 on the track.. >:)

[terraphantm]

BFD is a stock feature in Europe. I think.

Actually this is one of the few things that the US got first. All 03.5 US-spec E46s got BFD (stage 2) standard. In Europe, all the 03.5+ cars were prewired for it, but the regulatory approvals didn't come in until March 04. Adding the -BFDY switch enables it on those cars.


Up to Stage 2, it is a stock feature. Stage 3 is Europe only.



Only Stage 3. Every facelift E46 sedan has Stage 2 here from the factory. On coupes/convertibles it seems to be hit or miss; I see a lot of non-M coupes/convertibles here that have the extra outer ring on the LED tails lit, so there would be no provision for additional lighting. None of the M3's I see with LED tails have that extra ring lit from the factory unless BFD is active, so I don't understand why there's a difference between the M and non-M coupes/verts.

Stage 3 wasn't standard anywhere, at least on the E46s. And the cars weren't equipped for BFD until March 2003. Might be possible to enable it on earlier sedans (there are some cluster dependent settings that might not have been available initially), but for coupes, the wiring just isn't there until the LED tails came in.

That outer ring is lit on all of them, but it doesn't go to full bright (at least on the M3s; I don't remember normal coupes being different in that regard)

[az3579]

Actually this is one of the few things that the US got first. All 03.5 US-spec E46s got BFD (stage 2) standard. In Europe, all the 03.5+ cars were prewired for it, but the regulatory approvals didn't come in until March 04. Adding the -BFDY switch enables it on those cars.



Stage 3 wasn't standard anywhere, at least on the E46s. And the cars weren't equipped for BFD until March 2003. Might be possible to enable it on earlier sedans (there are some cluster dependent settings that might not have been available initially), but for coupes, the wiring just isn't there until the LED tails came in.

That outer ring is lit on all of them, but it doesn't go to full bright (at least on the M3s; I don't remember normal coupes being different in that regard)

Always a fountain of knowledge, proving I have the wrong info. Thanks, I've made the corrections on the YouTube page.
With regards to the coupe/convertible facelift LED lights, I've seen quite a lot of 325Ci's here with fully lit outer rings. They lit up when braking as well. These don't appear to be enthusiast cars as I see them on a morning commute on a regular basis. I'm not sure if I saw any 330Ci's though so I can't compare.

[johnrando]

Great video of the brake lights BP. I'll check out the detailed video when I get a chance. Do we need to code this in or it's already on?

[derbo]

Great video of the brake lights BP. I'll check out the detailed video when I get a chance. Do we need to code this in or it's already on?


Stage 3 requires coding, Stage 2 should be built in.. (at least it is built in to the E46 M3s w/ LED tails and the E46 facelifted sedans I've driven/seen.

[ELCID86]

BP (origin LCM) and Joop (new LCM) coded my stage 3.


Thumbs, iPhone, Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1).

[alexandre]

Wow, I didn't know that existed.

What lines do you have to modify in NCS to enable that ?

[derbo]

BFD_SW1_STUFE2 aktiv / nicht_aktiv BFD Stage 2 activation using Deceleration Sensor (Sensor 1?
BFD_SW2_STUFE2 aktiv / nicht_aktiv BFD Stage 2 activation using Deceleration Sensor
BFD_SW1_STUFE3 aktiv / nicht_aktiv BFD Stage 3 activation using Deceleration Sensor
BFD_SW2_STUFE3 aktiv / nicht_aktiv BFD Stage 3 activation using Deceleration Sensor (Sensor 2?)
BFD_ABS_STUFE3 aktiv / nicht_aktiv BFD Stage 3 activation using ABS sensor
BLST1_BLST3 aktiv / nicht_aktiv Outer tail lights blink during Stage 3 as well


This is the list of stuff I listed as enabled for the BFD stage3 to activate. Can BP, JP confirm?

[derbo]

Side note:

BP, http://shelf3d.com/4fam6Sm1rvM#BMW- Coding- brake force display(race)


I check this out and it confirms it blinks while abs is activated. this should be fun to see from behind people chasing me :)

[NorCalZman]

Great video, thanks. According to AZ in the video description you can have stage 3 coded to activate with Stage 2 or (potentially) later when ABS activates. Jon, if you see this, I assume you programmed the LCMs you sold to have stage 3 activate with ABS? That seems to be the most common in these videos I am seeing.

[M0nk3y]

Cool video.

I know I have 2-stage braking on my Z4M but have no clue at what threshold it kicks in

[az3579]

Side note:

BP, http://shelf3d.com/4fam6Sm1rvM#BMW- Coding- brake force display(race)


I check this out and it confirms it blinks while abs is activated. this should be fun to see from behind people chasing me :)

If you are hitting ABS on the track, you're doing it. wrong. :p


Cool video.

I know I have 2-stage braking on my Z4M but have no clue at what threshold it kicks in

Stage 2 kicks in when you start approaching the threshold braking zone. That is when you start to feel some serious braking force going on.


For reference, it can be coded that Stage 3 activates instead of Stage 2, before you hit ABS. I've tried that as well and it works.

[derbo]

If you are hitting ABS on the track, you're doing it. wrong. :p



Stage 2 kicks in when you start approaching the threshold braking zone. That is when you start to feel some serious braking force going on.


For reference, it can be coded that Stage 3 activates instead of Stage 2, before you hit ABS. I've tried that as well and it works.

Oh I know. I never want to hit ABS but gotta know the limits as the tires get greasy :)

sent from a Moto X

[az3579]

^ Excuses, excuses. :p

[ryankokesh]

Well that's pretty darn spiffy!

[terraphantm]

Cool video.

I know I have 2-stage braking on my Z4M but have no clue at what threshold it kicks in

Z4 LCM is actually the same as the E46 LCM, so you should be able to enable stage 3 with the above lines. Though I would set it this way:


BFD_SW1_STUFE2 aktiv / nicht_aktiv BFD Stage 2 activation using Deceleration Sensor (Sensor 1?
BFD_SW2_STUFE2 aktiv / nicht_aktiv BFD Stage 2 activation using Deceleration Sensor
BFD_SW1_STUFE3 aktiv / nicht_aktiv BFD Stage 3 activation using Deceleration Sensor
BFD_SW2_STUFE3 aktiv / nicht_aktiv BFD Stage 3 activation using Deceleration Sensor (Sensor 2?)
BFD_ABS_STUFE3 aktiv / nicht_aktiv BFD Stage 3 activation using ABS sensor
BLST1_BLST3 aktiv / nicht_aktiv Outer tail lights blink during Stage 3 as well

[wsmeyer]

So what would the difference be between this:

BFD_SW1_STUFE2 aktiv / nicht_aktiv BFD Stage 2 activation using Deceleration Sensor (Sensor 1?
BFD_SW2_STUFE2 aktiv / nicht_aktiv BFD Stage 2 activation using Deceleration Sensor
BFD_SW1_STUFE3 aktiv / nicht_aktiv BFD Stage 3 activation using Deceleration Sensor
BFD_SW2_STUFE3 aktiv / nicht_aktiv BFD Stage 3 activation using Deceleration Sensor (Sensor 2?)
BFD_ABS_STUFE3 aktiv / nicht_aktiv BFD Stage 3 activation using ABS sensor
BLST1_BLST3 aktiv / nicht_aktiv Outer tail lights blink during Stage 3 as well

and this:

BFD_SW1_STUFE2 aktiv / nicht_aktiv BFD Stage 2 activation using Deceleration Sensor (Sensor 1?
BFD_SW2_STUFE2 aktiv / nicht_aktiv BFD Stage 2 activation using Deceleration Sensor
BFD_SW1_STUFE3 aktiv / nicht_aktiv BFD Stage 3 activation using Deceleration Sensor
BFD_SW2_STUFE3 aktiv / nicht_aktiv BFD Stage 3 activation using Deceleration Sensor (Sensor 2?)
BFD_ABS_STUFE3 aktiv / nicht_aktiv BFD Stage 3 activation using ABS sensor
BLST1_BLST3 aktiv / nicht_aktiv Outer tail lights blink during Stage 3 as well

Also, would there be a preferred setup for cars driven in snow vs cars that aren't?

I'm wondering if using the ABS sensor might cause the BFD to come on more than you'd want when driving in snow.

[az3579]

Driving in snow shouldn't be a factor in your decision. If you're hitting ABS in snow/ice, you're going too fast for the conditions anyway and people behind you should be warned about your situation.

[wsmeyer]

To each his own I guess I'm just not sure I want this thing tripped every time a wheel briefly locks up on a patch of ice.

[ELCID86]

To each his own I guess I'm just not sure I want this thing tripped every time a wheel briefly locks up on a patch of ice.

Why not? :dunno

[terraphantm]

Driving in snow shouldn't be a factor in your decision. If you're hitting ABS in snow/ice, you're going too fast for the conditions anyway and people behind you should be warned about your situation.

I don't think I agree that you're always going too fast when ABS kicks in. Especially when stopping on a slope, it'll get triggered when you're very close to a stop (as in you're already going about as slow as you can go without being stopped).

That said, I think the ABS trigger should stay. In winter conditions, often times the traction is low enough that you can't decelerate fast enough to hit the thresholds. But with the ABS trigger set, at least you'll be warning people about low traction and such.

Also I should correct those translations

BFD_SW1_STUFE2 aktiv / nicht_aktiv BFD Stage 2 activation with deceleration threshold 1
BFD_SW2_STUFE2 aktiv / nicht_aktiv BFD Stage 2 activation with deceleration threshold 2
BFD_SW1_STUFE3 aktiv / nicht_aktiv BFD Stage 3 activation with deceleration threshold 1
BFD_SW2_STUFE3 aktiv / nicht_aktiv BFD Stage 3 activation with deceleration threshold 2
BFD_ABS_STUFE3 aktiv / nicht_aktiv BFD Stage 3 activation with ABS
BLST1_BLST3 aktiv / nicht_aktiv Main brake lights "stage 1" used as stage 3 (blinking)


If anyone's curious, the actual threshold values are in the cluster (AKMB) settings. I haven't figured out what units they are in though.

[derbo]

Thanks terra! I didnt know the translation :)

Is your setup, using stage 2 during heavy deceleration, and stage 3 during abs activation?

[terraphantm]

Thanks terra! I didnt know the translation :)

Is your setup, using stage 2 during heavy deceleration, and stage 3 during abs activation?

I've got it so that:
Stage 2 = heavy deceleration
Stage 3 = very heavy deceleration OR ABS

That said, so far I have not been able to trigger stage 3 without ABS, which to me suggests I don't have enough grip to hit that 2nd threshold. And I'm running Pilot Super Sports.

I might just eliminate stage 2 and have stage 3 set to threshold 1 and ABS. Stage 2 isn't super noticeable on coupes

[derbo]

That little outer ring is very slight even when I'm inches behind the car in Front. I only noticed it on the E92s when I started looking for it in the E46 M3s.

I'll have to play around with it and see if I can even hit Stage 3 before ABS with your setup. I am running Star Spec tires so it might be possible.

[Stu]

That little outer ring is very slight even when I'm inches behind the car in Front. I only noticed it on the E92s when I started looking for it in the E46 M3s.

I'll have to play around with it and see if I can even hit Stage 3 before ABS with your setup. I am running Star Spec tires so it might be possible.

I hit stage 3 before ABS the other night, actually.

It was dark out and I stopped fairly hard the other day but didn't engage ABS. I looked in my rear view mirror and saw the reflection of my brake lights flashing quickly. Seems like it's either a threshold or ABS, whichever comes first.

I don't have "SW" set for it, too; just ABS.

[terraphantm]

I hit stage 3 before ABS the other night, actually.

It was dark out and I stopped fairly hard the other day but didn't engage ABS. I looked in my rear view mirror and saw the reflection of my brake lights flashing quickly. Seems like it's either a threshold or ABS, whichever comes first.

I don't have "SW" set for it, too; just ABS.

Are you sure you didn't momentarily hit ABS? If you don't have the SW settings enabled, ABS should be the only trigger

[derbo]

Terra, I'm thinking of ditching stage 2 altogether as well. Just be more interesting lol.

[wsmeyer]

I don't think I agree that you're always going too fast when ABS kicks in. Especially when stopping on a slope, it'll get triggered when you're very close to a stop (as in you're already going about as slow as you can go without being stopped).

This is what I was talking about and wanted to start a discussion about. It's really that last 10mph or so as you're coming to a stop that usually the front right tire will briefly lockup as it runs over small patches of ice. This happens a lot and I'm not convinced I'm doing anything but annoy the driver behind me if my BFD keeps getting activated.

[az3579]

Are you sure you didn't momentarily hit ABS? If you don't have the SW settings enabled, ABS should be the only trigger

He probably coded it to activate as Stage 2.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk

[terraphantm]

Just tested swtting BFD stage 3 to threshold 1 -- definitely comes on before ABS, perhaps too early. I'll play with it some more.

Also, there is a minimum speed setting for BFD. Might be worth playing with custom values. Should eliminate any concerns you have about winter

[derbo]

too early? LOL...might be interesting tomorrow at the track :X

[terraphantm]

Playing some more -- figured out how to change the frequency of the flashes in stage 3.

BFD_BLINK_EINZEIT
BFD_BLINK_AUSSEIT

These two values correspond to how long the lights are on and off respectively. By default there are only two values - wert_01 and wert_02. These correspond to 00 and 01 respectively. But if you disassemble the file in NCS Dummy, you'll see that the data can be anything from 00 to 0F (15).

I'm not sure what the exact relation between the value and time is -- it's probably something like time(ms) = 10*data + 50ms or something to that effect. So far I think I like how setting the value to 0A looks

Unfortunately, it doesn't seem possible to set it to blink slowly at first, and then quickly when ABS is triggered

[az3579]

^ Having it blink slowly would just confuse people. They'd think you're getting on and off the brakes if it's too slow of a blink. I see it all the time where I see brake lights go on and off, on and off, slowly, when it's really just people getting on and off the brakes. Hate it when people do that because I can't be sure if they just have their hazards on. This is why I despise red turn signals.

[terraphantm]

^ Having it blink slowly would just confuse people. They'd think you're getting on and off the brakes if it's too slow of a blink. I see it all the time where I see brake lights go on and off, on and off, slowly, when it's really just people getting on and off the brakes. Hate it when people do that because I can't be sure if they just have their hazards on. This is why I despise red turn signals.

At least for cars without LEDs, it may be worth slowing down to allow full brightness to be achieved. And you have pretty good control over how much you slow it down (time on and off individually controllable by 10ms increments). From my experiments, seems the slowest setting is about equivalent to the E9x BFD setting.

[M0nk3y]

Random comment. And really noobish, but what device are you guys using to code?

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk

[terraphantm]

Random comment. And really noobish, but what device are you guys using to code?

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk

A laptop with an OBDII interface and the right software. Cheapest interface would be VAG-COM 409.1 cable with the FT232RL ($10ish on eBay), but this requires some minor soldering (pins 7 and 8 have to be bridged) and are only compatible with pre most-bus BMWs. You can also get a D-CAN cable for $30-40, and these should work out of the box (and are compatible with newer BMWs like your 128).

The important part is the software. Need to get something called the EDIABAS suite, which comes with programs like INPA and NCS Expert. Most mods you hear about will use NCS Expert

[derbo]

I just got back from the track day, and with Stage 3 set to Threshold2, i couldn't get it to blink even on the track. I set it to threshold 1 and I got my buddy to take video from behind. I'll have to get it on my computer tomorrow and see if I have some time to show it on youtube. It's kinda hilarious at his reaction of it.

[derbo]

This is a brief lap with my friend recording my rear brake lights. He said he confuses him and forces him to brake harder. Seems like it's doing its job ;)

It is set to threshold 1 to activate Stage 3 since even threshold2 didn't active stage 3 on the track unless ABS kicked in.



The video, you may have to view in full HD in order to see it since its so small in the window.



edit: scratch that. I need to reupload.

edit2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMztcPU_lYA

[NorCalZman]

Hahah, I love it. The best part showing it is just after the 30 second mark.

[az3579]

That's way too soon for them to be on, IMO. I can see that getting annoying on the track if I was behind you. :biggrin

[derbo]

That's way too soon for them to be on, IMO. I can see that getting annoying on the track if I was behind you. :biggrin


I agree. It is definitely too early and it confuses the guy behind me all the time. It's kinda fun cause i was one of the slower cars in advanced group and it was fun to see the faster cars see me blinking my brakes.

I switched them back to stage 2 threshold1 and stage 3 on threshold 2 and ABS.

[Rovert]

I'm always racing to hit my 4-way button when I am doing a dramatic german brake deceleration display on the highway due to traffic. Luckily the 4 way is right behind the shift knob as I am downshifting and it's become natural to me to do it in just about any car I drive. But automatically would be nice!

[az3579]

^ Especially with the euro hazards.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk

[terraphantm]

That's way too soon for them to be on, IMO. I can see that getting annoying on the track if I was behind you. :biggrin

Need to play with those thresholds I guess. I wish I knew how to convert the cluster values to m/s^2

These are the threshold values from the cluster

GRENZWERT_GRUND_SCHWELLE 0000009A (02)
nicht_aktiv 00,00 not enabled !(MAERZ03+US,(!US+BRAKEFORCE,MAERZ04)+!ENTFALL_BFD )
aktiv 01,9F enabled MAERZ03+US,(!US+BRAKEFORCE,MAERZ04)+!ENTFALL_BFD

GRENZWERT_VERZ_SCHWELLE_1 0000009C (02)
nicht_aktiv 00,00 not enabled !(MAERZ03+US,(!US+BRAKEFORCE,MAERZ04)+!ENTFALL_BFD )
aktiv 01,5F enabled MAERZ03+US,(!US+BRAKEFORCE,MAERZ04)+!ENTFALL_BFD

GRENZWERT_VERZ_SCHWELLE_2 0000009E (02)
nicht_aktiv 00,00 not enabled !(MAERZ03+US,(!US+BRAKEFORCE,MAERZ04)+!ENTFALL_BFD )
aktiv 00,FF enabled MAERZ03+US,(!US+BRAKEFORCE,MAERZ04)+!ENTFALL_BFD

I think SCHWELLE_1 is threshold 1, etc. I'm not sure what GRUND_SCHWELLE is used for. Trend seems to be that the smaller the value, the more aggressive the deceleration. Might be worth trying values like 0120 or 0110 for SCHWELLE_2

[az3579]

Need to play with those thresholds I guess. I wish I knew how to convert the cluster values to m/s^2

These are the threshold values from the cluster

GRENZWERT_GRUND_SCHWELLE 0000009A (02) FF,FF
nicht_aktiv 00,00 00,00 not enabled !(MAERZ03+US,(!US+BRAKEFORCE,MAERZ04)+!ENTFALL_BFD )
aktiv 01,9F 01,9F enabled MAERZ03+US,(!US+BRAKEFORCE,MAERZ04)+!ENTFALL_BFD
GRENZWERT_VERZ_SCHWELLE_1 0000009C (02) FF,FF
nicht_aktiv 00,00 00,00 not enabled !(MAERZ03+US,(!US+BRAKEFORCE,MAERZ04)+!ENTFALL_BFD )
aktiv 01,5F 01,5F enabled MAERZ03+US,(!US+BRAKEFORCE,MAERZ04)+!ENTFALL_BFD
GRENZWERT_VERZ_SCHWELLE_2 0000009E (02) FF,FF
nicht_aktiv 00,00 00,00 not enabled !(MAERZ03+US,(!US+BRAKEFORCE,MAERZ04)+!ENTFALL_BFD )
aktiv 00,FF 00,FF enabled MAERZ03+US,(!US+BRAKEFORCE,MAERZ04)+!ENTFALL_BFD

I think SCHWELLE_1 is threshold 1, etc. I'm not sure what GRUND_SCHWELLE is used for. Trend seems to be that the smaller the value, the more aggressive the deceleration. Might be worth trying values like 0120 or 0110 for SCHWELLE_2

You scare me sometimes. Lol

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk

[terraphantm]

Just checked, Z4M has threshold2 set to 011F and everything else the same as ours. I'm going to try setting mine to 011F and see if that helps

[derbo]

So from 255 decimal to 287. That is a higher value. Should try 0110 while you are at it too ;)

[terraphantm]

Set the threshold to 011F. Still feels like it comes on a bit too early (though it is possible I messed up the recoding). I suspect I'm going to go through a good bit of my brakes trying to figure out the perfect threshold

[derbo]

As long as you figure it out! You are just rebedding in the pads ;)

sent from Moto X Dev Edition

[derbo]

http://youtu.be/szyUN5GlQ7c?t=6m42s

just thought I post this too cause it has BFD on the 918 :drool

[terraphantm]

You know what, 011F is actually a good value for that setting. I initially coded something wrong, which is why it was still coming on early. 011F seems to be *right* before ABS kicks in, but still before. That sounds about perfect to me

Also there's a setting that's something to the effect of BFD_ASC_TIMER... don't change it. I tried the alternate value, and my stage 3 was going off whenever I hit the brakes above 0 mph

[rguti153]

Bump . Need to do this .

[terraphantm]

Any particular questions you have? Pretty much everything you need to know is in this thread

[rguti153]

I will pm you. If I do . Just been searching everywhere, where to get the ncs expert program ? N then I go from there

[derbo]

Any particular questions you have? Pretty much everything you need to know is in this thread

Terra, what are you doing to adjust the threshold to 011F? PA Soft?


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[terraphantm]

Terra, what are you doing to adjust the threshold to 011F? PA Soft?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

PASoft could work, but I actually modified the daten file and coded with that.

[derbo]

PASoft could work, but I actually modified the daten file and coded with that.

Modifying the Daten file sounds more like up my alley.

The file is from the AKMB?

and you drop this GRENZWERT_VERZ_SCHWELLE_1 from 01,5F to 01,1F?

[terraphantm]

I changed GRENZWERT_VERZ_SCHWELLE_2 from 00,FF to 01,1F. Then set BFD Stage 3 to activate with threshold 2

[derbo]

I changed GRENZWERT_VERZ_SCHWELLE_2 from 00,FF to 01,1F. Then set BFD Stage 3 to activate with threshold 2

Thanks Terra! I'll play around with that.

Is there a faster way than disassembling the DATEN to a text and modifying the HEX and reassembling it? I already did this way but curious if NCSdummy has a better option.

I'll try it out next time I drive it.