Speed vs. Handling

[JKO_ZHP]

I -may- be tracking the ZHP for the first time as part of a group with my school. It'll be my first time on any track in general, and I was just wondering, what would you feel is more important? More HP or better handling?

The track is TBA but I'm sure it's going to be a beginner's one since most of us have never been to a track, so it won't be twisty curvy like the Nürburgring or anything crazy.

I still have the headers I bought a month or so ago, but they cost about the same as some Hotchkis sway bars, so I could flip the headers and get new Hotchkis. I'm asking since the mod bug is still here and having either on the car would be fine for DD'ing by me. (This would give me an excuse to get either on) :fistpump

I've heard great things about the Hotckis even for DD use - as for the headers, it would make DD'ing fun too; the whole illegal issue doesn't faze me, I am willing to take the chance after they're on, once I pass smog without them first.

[sillieidiot]

handling is my choice. but really. i wouldn't do either. go to the first track session and feel out your car first. then you can decide which is more important to you.

[JKO_ZHP]

I will probably never track it again after that one day. I'm not trying to get either mod on for the track day, it's more to feel how different it is from just spirited driving through a canyon road & take advantage of it.

Because I had these headers way before the track day thing was even suggested. I was also eyeing Hotchkis for the past couple months. The upcoming date is just an opportunity to use them, since I had never planned for the headers to see a track anyway back then.

[LivesNearCostco]

Famous last words! Well not everybody gets hooked, but there is always that risk. You could become a track addict.

I will probably never track it again after that one day.

[HokieZHP]

It's gonna be dependent on whether you're ok with putting up with the emission issues associated with headers. I had Hotchkis sways on my ZHP and absolutely LOVED them! Completely changed the handling of the car for the better.

I'd say go for the sways. These cars aren't that fast in a straight line and I always had more fun in the corners with my ZHP than in a straight line.

[sillieidiot]

well then i'd still go with the sways. why can't you just do both? the headers aren't going to feel like that much of an upgrade compared to the sways imo. sways would be cheaper overall too, cause you can put that shit on yourself. save money on labor lol put that money towards the new endlinks that you are going to need.

[tkundhi]

Do neither. Save your money to do another track day in the future.

The ZHP is quite capable in stock form. Focus on learning to drive on the track. Doing it right is harder than people think.

If you decide it's for you. You will see the first upgrade should be your brakes.

Seriously there isn't any reason to spend money on mods for your first track event. Just make sure you have a solid, dependable car. Depending on the track you may want to start with a full set of pads. Flush your brake fluid before you go. Unless that's been done within the last 6 months.

That's about it. Have fun and report back.


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[cakM3]

JKO....since you already have the headers, sell them and then get the Hotchkis sways. I had them on my 323i and loved them. This is probably one of the mods I have left to do to my ZHP...:) Handling will be improved and you will find that you can go more aggressively into corners.....much improved fun factor :thumbsup

[KevinC]

I agree with the "do neither" sentiment. Try to make a track day at Spring Mountain Motorsports Park in Pahrump, NV - it's spectacular, and I can almost guarantee you'll be back.

[JKO_ZHP]

Famous last words! Well not everybody gets hooked, but there is always that risk. You could become a track addict.

Haha very true....but with an auto + final year of college, I am even more discouraged to track after that day. I'm only able to make it since it is on spring break.


It's gonna be dependent on whether you're ok with putting up with the emission issues associated with headers. I had Hotchkis sways on my ZHP and absolutely LOVED them! Completely changed the handling of the car for the better.

I'd say go for the sways. These cars aren't that fast in a straight line and I always had more fun in the corners with my ZHP than in a straight line.

I'm totally fine with the risks that come with headers in CA. The original plan was to get them on just because.
What did you do with the factory bars?


Do neither. Save your money to do another track day in the future.

The ZHP is quite capable in stock form. Focus on learning to drive on the track. Doing it right is harder than people think.

If you decide it's for you. You will see the first upgrade should be your brakes.

Seriously there isn't any reason to spend money on mods for your first track event. Just make sure you have a solid, dependable car. Depending on the track you may want to start with a full set of pads. Flush your brake fluid before you go. Unless that's been done within the last 6 months.

That's about it. Have fun and report back.


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I didn't originally get the headers for the track event, since I bought them in January and they were just a mod "for the hell of it." But the event made it seem like it could be a + versus not having them on that day.

I have been looking into sway bars (namely Hotchkis, have read all the UUC, TMS, etc. comparisons) for a while though, just to improve DD'ing and also to make the occasional spirited driving a little more fun....also would be intended for just regular use.

(Basically what I'm saying is I wanted to do these mods already even before I knew I was going to a track event.)

[QC_ZHP]

+1 on sways, you'll get a lot more enjoyment out of them.

[HokieZHP]

I just kept my stock sways for when I sold the car since I put it back to stock-ish.

[brettbimmer]

Famous last words! Well not everybody gets hooked, but there is always that risk. You could become a track addict.


Do neither. Save your money to do another track day in the future.

The ZHP is quite capable in stock form. Focus on learning to drive on the track. Doing it right is harder than people think.

If you decide it's for you. You will see the first upgrade should be your brakes.

Seriously there isn't any reason to spend money on mods for your first track event. Just make sure you have a solid, dependable car. Depending on the track you may want to start with a full set of pads. Flush your brake fluid before you go. Unless that's been done within the last 6 months.

That's about it. Have fun and report back.


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I agree with the "do neither" sentiment. Try to make a track day at Spring Mountain Motorsports Park in Pahrump, NV - it's spectacular, and I can almost guarantee you'll be back.

What everyone above has said. Once you have a day at the track, there is a very good chance that it will pull you back for another future track day. Big fan of just going stock until you have multiple HPDE events under your belt, as the car in stock form is quite competent for a driver new to the HPDE scene. I've seen guys out there for their first time in a Z06 Corvette on slicks, and they are so busy trying to figure out how much power to add or subtract from the equation that it really takes away from their experience learning how to properly drive on the track. I've run the track in my 4 cyl. E36 on multiple occasions, and have a fun time with 138hp.

HPDE requirements are usually brake fluid replacements in the last 6-12 months depending on the event, as brake fluid is hygroscopic (pulls in moisture from the atmosphere) and thus it lowers the boiling point for your brakes.

Now, depending on the track, a slightly more aggressive brake pad may be a smart idea if the track is a high-speed track or one requiring frequent brake input, even if it is front axle only. Problem there is that a more track-biased pad needs to be warmed up before it will work well, and they can be quite noisy, not to mention the added cost of buying another set of pads. Otherwise just don't drive at 10/10ths and save a little heat/wear on your stock pads. I've run stock pads without issue, but I also don't ride the brakes much because I know that once they get hot, they are not going to work well, so I will just dial it back a bit. If I could go 130 on the back straight, I may decide to just cruise at 110, allowing me to save an even harder stop at the end of the straight.

Most of all, be safe and have a fun time! If you have the option for a second day over the same time period, I highly recommend it as most people need a day to settle in to the track before they can start improving their line and thus increasing their speed safely. One other note if you ever think you may go back to this track again, take notes on the parts of the track that you did well with, but more importantly the areas which you need to improve. A friend of mine started this years ago and I followed suit, and it is great to be able to look back and reference what areas I need to work on. Hopefully they will give you a great instructor, and have a good classroom instructor as well. Pay attention in class too, as there is some wonderful experience and wisdom in the classroom sessions (normally).

[yura]

Do neither. Save your money to do another track day in the future.

This.

If you want to be faster, invest in the driver, not the car. Good drivers in stock cars regularly destroy poor drivers in heavily modified "fast" cars.

[HokieZHP]

Investing in the driver is a great idea but if you don't think you're going to go often or at all, go ahead and mod your car. I've done a couple driving school sessions before and when I first got my ZHP and haven't been back to one mostly because i'm in school and don't have the time so I go with modding my cars. Plus if you only do one or two driving schools per year, you still have the car for the other 363 days of the year. May as well make it more fun to DD.

That's my view at least.

[scooby24]

This is not a car you modify to make more power. The cost/benefit just isn't there. However, every penny you spend on the suspension is a fantastic investment in the fun factor.

[QC_ZHP]

This is not a car you modify to make more power. The cost/benefit just isn't there. However, every penny you spend on the suspension is a fantastic investment in the fun factor.

+1, although I do plan on installing headers in the near future. These cars have plenty of power on the street/track. Focus on being able to use ALL of it before you look to increase the power. Just my $0.02.

[JKO_ZHP]

So the location will be at Grange Motor Circuit in Apple Valley (CA).

It seems like the Hotchkis will be a better investment then. No risk (vs. having headers) plus suspension > power from the looks of it.

By any chance though, does anyone know the ballpark cost of installing headers? I went to my guy a while back and he said there were two types of headers for our cars? One would be easy to install, and one would be hard (the BimmerBrakes GEN3 for example). He didn't give me a quote but just told me not to get them done, period.

In any case, will prepare the headers FS later on. Not worried about the Hotchkis since they're not in danger of being out of stock - they're even listen on Amazon!

Thanks for the info, everyone.:cheers

[derbo]

If you are only planning to do ONE track day, I wouldn't bother with either. It's more interesting to learn the cars characteristics while learning to be a better driver without adding variables that change the way the car reacts.

My philosophy of tuning is, handling first, then power later. Suspension, Sway Bars, then Rims/Tires, then power mods.

[JKO_ZHP]

If you are only planning to do ONE track day, I wouldn't bother with either. It's more interesting to learn the cars characteristics while learning to be a better driver without adding variables that change the way the car reacts.

My philosophy of tuning is, handling first, then power later. Suspension, Sway Bars, then Rims/Tires, then power mods.

I think this is the 2nd or 3rd time I'm mentioning this - but I was planning on doing one or the other before the idea of having a track day ever came up. It's just one of those mods that can help out on the track, but it's not dedicated. Like how a handful of people have turbo/supercharger kits but have never set foot on a track - it's just a fun upgrade for them for the occasional spirited driving. Just like how the headers and/or sway bars would be, just a nice little upgrade, not intended to shave seconds off my time or so I can take the corner faster (although it may).

[Johal E32]

Do neither. Save your money to do another track day in the future.

The ZHP is quite capable in stock form. Focus on learning to drive on the track. Doing it right is harder than people think.

If you decide it's for you. You will see the first upgrade should be your brakes.

Seriously there isn't any reason to spend money on mods for your first track event. Just make sure you have a solid, dependable car. Depending on the track you may want to start with a full set of pads. Flush your brake fluid before you go. Unless that's been done within the last 6 months.

That's about it. Have fun and report back.


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This.

[derbo]

If you HAVE to get a mod, I would go with the sways first. It will change the car the most compared to the headers.

[sillieidiot]

I think this is the 2nd or 3rd time I'm mentioning this - but I was planning on doing one or the other before the idea of having a track day ever came up. It's just one of those mods that can help out on the track, but it's not dedicated. Like how a handful of people have turbo/supercharger kits but have never set foot on a track - it's just a fun upgrade for them for the occasional spirited driving. Just like how the headers and/or sway bars would be, just a nice little upgrade, not intended to shave seconds off my time or so I can take the corner faster (although it may).

i don't know why you even posted this thread tbh. you keep saying that it's a mod that you were planning on doing anyways. then you ask us a question about it and an upcoming track day. to me it sounds like you are asking which mod specifically for the track day (which i assume everyone is thinking the same). otherwise, i'd just put on what you have if you were already doing it anyways. neither mod will really help you if you don't know how to use your car fully. For example, how are you going to set up the sways?

i think the header install is like 250-500 depending on the shop from what i've seen.

[sillieidiot]

If you are only planning to do ONE track day, I wouldn't bother with either. It's more interesting to learn the cars characteristics while learning to be a better driver without adding variables that change the way the car reacts.

My philosophy of tuning is, handling first, then power later. Suspension, Sway Bars, then Rims/Tires, then power mods.

agreed

[JKO_ZHP]

i don't know why you even posted this thread tbh. you keep saying that it's a mod that you were planning on doing anyways. then you ask us a question about it and an upcoming track day. to me it sounds like you are asking which mod specifically for the track day (which i assume everyone is thinking the same). otherwise, i'd just put on what you have if you were already doing it anyways. neither mod will really help you if you don't know how to use your car fully. For example, how are you going to set up the sways?

i think the header install is like 250-500 depending on the shop from what i've seen.

Basically to see which would provide more benefit since I'm indifferent to either at this point. A bit confusing, I know.
http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=617109
^Whatever this guy did, or any of the other x number of people who had them installed and then posted their reviews/specs. I wouldn't be doing the work anyways and my guy always has an opinion since he works on both your average daily cars on the road plus dedicated track cars. Not looking to build a track car, just make it a little more "sporty."

[3ZHPGUY]

Before I would do any mods, I would go through a good HPDE tech inspection. You will be very sad if your black flagged for the rest of the weekend for something you thought was good.

I'll look for the tech inspect I have from my old BMWCCA chapter and post it here.


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[brettbimmer]

Before I would do any mods, I would go through a good HPDE tech inspection. You will be very sad if your black flagged for the rest of the weekend for something you thought was good.

I'll look for the tech inspect I have from my old BMWCCA chapter and post it here.

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Guy, if you cannot find it, I know that I have a couple in my HPDE binder from HPDEs past too.

[sillieidiot]

Basically to see which would provide more benefit since I'm indifferent to either at this point. A bit confusing, I know.
http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=617109
^Whatever this guy did, or any of the other x number of people who had them installed and then posted their reviews/specs. I wouldn't be doing the work anyways and my guy always has an opinion since he works on both your average daily cars on the road plus dedicated track cars. Not looking to build a track car, just make it a little more "sporty."

you mean his adjustment for install? he started with soft, at the end of the thread he had stiff, but then said he's still testing. i don't think it's a good idea to be picking up settings off people, unless you have the exact same wheel/suspension setup and you like their driving style.

[ELCID86]

This: http://oppositelock.jalopnik.com/why-you-shouldnt-modify-your-car-for-the-track-1532455970/@pgeorge


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[Asiah119]

Famous last words! Well not everybody gets hooked, but there is always that risk. You could become a track addict.

That's exactly what I was going to say. Once you get on the track that first time you may never come back. All it took for me was riding along with my instructor friend and I was hooked.

Speaking to your actual question. ZHPs are pretty capable cars. Especially as a beginner (speaking as a beginner) your car will be capable of more than you will ask it to do with everything stock. By all means, if you want to put sways or headers on, do it. But the general guideline that the group that I've started HPDEing with is that you don't need to think about mods until you're in B group (out of D-A group with A being the most skilled).

Out of a two day HPDE with 3 and 4 20 minute sessions for each day I finally started really getting comfortable by the middle of the day. I don't know what your event is going to look like, but my general advise is to not worry about speed in your first several runs, worry about getting your turn-in, apex, and track-out for the corners down and then the rest will fall in place.