Anyone come from an E36 M3?

[captain_underpants]

Hey everyone,

I'm doing some research for my next car purchase. I've considered everything from a 06-07 WRX to a 350Z and am really leaning towards a ZHP and it's solid balance of performance, style and practicality I want in a DD.

I had an E36 M3 and loved everything about it (well, except for the fact that it left me stranded 3 times).

I spent close to $3k in maintenance and did the work myself with the help of friends and had a solid performing and maintained car that I could have driven for a long time very happily, had one of my rear tires not blown and made my car lose control and slide underneath a semi at 40mph

My question is has anyone here had an E36 M3 in the past? If so, how does it compare to the ZHP? My schedule is a bit hectic right now, otherwise I'd find one locally to test drive and gauge it or myself.

[Marcus-SanDiego]

Captain, welcome to the site. I know that several members here came from an E36 M3. I am sure they will chime in.

Thanks for introducing yourself.

[Mike V]

I've had 3 E36 M3's... two of them were bone stock. Stock for stock, the ZHP is very similar in performance but in a considerably more refined package and IMO, the ZHP looks better.

[az3579]

For me, it was between an E36 M3 and the ZHP. I got the ZHP because I didn't want to deal with any more issues of an "older" car. Going from an E30 with the same engine as the M3 wouldn't have been much of an upgrade because the M3 didn't provide enough "toys" to make the switch worthwhile. Plus, I don't think the E36 M3 looks nearly as good as the ZHP does.

Major deciding factors for me were:
* Looks
* Toys (rain sensing wipers, 4-doors with split fold rear seats, etc.)
* Better fuel mileage
* More comfortable for daily driving
* Not everyone and their mother has a ZHP compared to how many have an E36 M3
* Much less quirks being a newer car. OCD prevails...

[PKR]

Me too. I owned a stock '95 M3 for a couple of years. Loved it. I'd have to agree ... its very similar to the ZHP, though I'd make a few distinctions: the power curve on the ZHP feels broader, more usable; the E36 felt a tad nose-heavy in comparison; the ZHP's ride is more comfortable - still firm and controlled though. If you enjoyed the E36 then you;ll certainly enjoy the ZHP.

[rikdee]

I, too, owned a '95 M3. Comparatively speaking, and assuming street application, the ZHP is a much better daily car. While the performance is about the same as the E36 M3, the ZHP is more refined in almost every aspect. Fit and finish is better, NVH is much better, body fasteners and door gaskets are much improved, front underpan design is much easier to work with, and let's not forget changing microfilters (ever done that on an E36?). Overall, the E-46 (ZHP included) is simply the design evolution of the E36. I'ver never looked back. My E36 had but 38k miles when I sold it to a close friend. Sadly, it was totaled last month in a multi vehicle fender bender in Naples, FL.

[Mike V]

What year was your M3? The ZHP engine feels somewhere between the 95 S50 and the 96+ S52. It doesn't quite have the pull up top like the S50 and not quite the low end grunt of the S52.

[M54Dave]

I am a Ex E36 M owner as well, mine was a 98 sedan 5spd. I agree with everything stated so far, I find that the S52 and M54 have a very similar feel and sound, I agree with Mike that the S52 had a little more low end grunt than the M54. After owning 2 e46s, I can tell you the e46 is much more refined, and the interior is more modern and better built. The e36 was a little more raw and driver involved, but that was due to less sound insulation and technology. I have driven an e30 m3, and it's the same thing, more raw and involved than the e36.

[static667]

I haven't owned an E36 M or a ZHP but, going from a '95 325is to an '02 325Ci is a similar comparison. The e36 was a little more raw and less refined than the e46. My '02 is smoother and quieter but still just as responsive and nimble. I will always have a soft spot for an E36 but, the E46 is a great car.

[captain_underpants]

Thanks for the feedback guys! Keep it coming.


What year was your M3? The ZHP engine feels somewhere between the 95 S50 and the 96+ S52. It doesn't quite have the pull up top like the S50 and not quite the low end grunt of the S52.

99 Estoril Coupe.

When you say it didn't pull up top like an S50 or have the down low torque of the S52 it kind of makes it seem like the car lacks power in both those areas. I'm sure that's not what you meant though, right? (crosses fingers) I enjoyed the down low torque of the S52.

I didn't find it too raw honestly, I thought it was a great driver focused car. It wasn't as quiet or smooth as a 5 series, but that was the point of buying an M3 to start with. With the next car I'd like something refined for the day to day commute, as long as it's still involving and can keep the enthusiast part of me happy.

I wish I had time to go drive a ZHP right now and see how it feels!


One more thing, how are the seats? I LOVED the feel of my vader seats in the M3.

[Marcus-SanDiego]

The seats in my ZHP are the best I've been in. I'm on my 5th BMW.

Here's a look at my seats:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v125/marcussandiego/Photo%20shoot%20August%2022%202010/MarksImolarotZHP032.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v125/marcussandiego/interioragain.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v125/marcussandiego/leatherinterior2.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v125/marcussandiego/leatherinterior.jpg

[captain_underpants]

The seats in my ZHP are the best I've been in. I'm on my 5th BMW.

Here's a look at my seats:

Do they provide enough lateral support to hold you in place? I know that depends on the size of the person in the seat, but im on a fact finding mission here.

How about lumbar support? Are long drives an issue?

[Marcus-SanDiego]

I drove the car from Denver to San Diego. No problem on lumbar support.

As for lateral, I weigh 185 lbs -- and I'm fairly broad. They're pretty snug for me. It will be different for everyone, though. The bolsters are not adjustable (like they are on my E92).

[captain_underpants]

I drove the car from Denver to San Diego. No problem on lumbar support.

As for lateral, I weigh 185 lbs -- and I'm fairly broad. They're pretty snug for me. It will be different for everyone, though. The bolsters are not adjustable (like they are on my E92).

Good good.

My E36 was a maintenance whore, are ZHPs like that as well?

[Marcus-SanDiego]

As for maintenance, I can't speak to that. I have had the car for about eight months. I did the preventive maintenance on the cooling system at 60,000 miles (though I'm not quite at 60,000 miles yet). Others, who have higher mileage, will need to chime in.

[danewilson77]

I am on original coolant system......

My project thread lists everything I had to do around 100k miles.

Droid! Srs Legitness!

[kaboom]

I switch often between an e36m and my ZHP. The e36 is faster everywhere: down low, up top, and we've raced many times from many speeds to verify our feelings.

I like the ride/handling balance of the ZHP a lot more and the interior is obviously much nicer and updated. I personally feel the engine lacks torque, but I'm used to very fast cars, so take that with a grain of salt. That said, the e36 powerplant I find a fantastic piece of work.

Ian

[Mike V]

Thanks for the feedback guys! Keep it coming.



99 Estoril Coupe.

When you say it didn't pull up top like an S50 or have the down low torque of the S52 it kind of makes it seem like the car lacks power in both those areas. I'm sure that's not what you meant though, right? (crosses fingers) I enjoyed the down low torque of the S52.

I didn't find it too raw honestly, I thought it was a great driver focused car. It wasn't as quiet or smooth as a 5 series, but that was the point of buying an M3 to start with. With the next car I'd like something refined for the day to day commute, as long as it's still involving and can keep the enthusiast part of me happy.

Marcus, I am envious of your interior.

I wish I had time to go drive a ZHP right now and see how it feels!


One more thing, how are the seats? I LOVED the feel of my vader seats in the M3.

Haha sorry, it does sound like the zhp engine is a slug with how I compared it. :) I meant the power delivery seems more linear with the zhp.

As for the seats, I find the zhp seats to be padded considerably less than the Vaders. In the zhp, my butt is fatigued (let the jokes begin heheh) after a couple hours. In the M3, I could go on an 8 hour trip without any soreness. The zhp seats provide a tiltable head rest though. The lack of a separate headrest is one thing I didn't like about the Vaders. On a long trip, I like to rest my head on the headrest with it tilted all the way forward.

kaboom, what year E36 M3 are you speaking of? Have you both driven both cars in the races? I know two brothers who a few years ago owned a 97 M3 and 03 ZHP. When they raced, they were dead even with mostly stock cars. Curious to hear your details...

[az3579]

About the seats -
In my old E30, the seats hold you a LOT tighter. You can feel yourself getting squished when you get in, but not in an uncomfortable way. In that respect, the E46 seats are more comfortable because you're not being squished, even though after a long trip in the E30 it didn't feel bad at all. I do notice a little bit more movement in my seat with the '46, but it's not like I'm sliding around like on non-sport seats. Just a tiny bit of movement; you still stay in place though.

[danewilson77]

To answer your question a lil better......the wiki does a fairly good job at laying out the problem area's....

http://www.bimmerfest.com/wiki/index.php?title=BMW_E46#What_should_I_look_out_for .3F

Additionally....

http://www.zhpmafia.com/forums/showthread.php?1830-E46-Preventative-maintenance-Issues-DIY-s

[Cadeez]

I switch often between an e36m and my ZHP. The e36 is faster everywhere: down low, up top, and we've raced many times from many speeds to verify our feelings.

I like the ride/handling balance of the ZHP a lot more and the interior is obviously much nicer and updated. I personally feel the engine lacks torque, but I'm used to very fast cars, so take that with a grain of salt. That said, the e36 powerplant I find a fantastic piece of work.

Ian

I read all the comparisons on this thread and the only one I'm in agreement with is this one 100%, I was getting ready to write this post almost word for word... My '99 E36 M3 (pic below) and my current ZHP are (were) both bone stock, and my M3 would smoke my ZHP any day of the week. It's a lighter, smaller car w/ 240hp & 236ft lbs out of the box, it was built for the track. I've never even seen tq #'s for our ZHP's? I freakin loved that car, and every time I get in my ZHP and step on the gas I cry a little inside, the power just isn't there... The bottom end torque in the M3 was awesome, put your foot into it and you were gone. Traction control in the rain? Forget about it, it hardly helped and was easy to make mistakes. Also keep in mind that by the time I sold it I had 175k on the odometer, and it still went like a MF'er. As far as maintenence goes, for me there was none, that thing was bulletproof.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not ZHP bashing here fellas, just stating the facts as I see them. The suspension in my M3 was a little tired, my ZHP handles and drives like a freakin dream, it way out handles the E36 M3. The E46 itself is just a better made car, not surprising because it's newer, and I think in every way other than the powerplant it has definitely matured. They made the E36 for what 7-8 years, 92-98, 99 if we're talking about the M3, so it was pretty well polished by '99. Bottom line I love my '04 ZHP, I just wish it had the performance to match it's looks. The ZHP looks both pissed and sexy at the same time, and it should be able hang with R32's, WRX's, S4's, 996etc...but alas it is no match. M3-1/ZHP-0

http://i374.photobucket.com/albums/oo184/jcadell/DSCN1322.jpg

[Marcus-SanDiego]

Good write up, Jeff.

[az3579]

Jeff, I 100% agree about the grunt. I've only driven two different E36 M3's (a '96 and a '95) and both seemed a lot faster, a lot more RAW. I don't know if I can agree with what you said about handling; the E36 M3 is supposed to handle much better, being an M3 and being lighter and more raw. With a fresh suspension, I think it would be close or a little better than the ZHP, though I wouldn't know for sure because I've never driven the E36 M3 on a track or auto-x before. Either way, the ZHP is a much better daily driver and the M3 is a much better track car.

[Jesse M]

I owned a 99' M3. I loved it to death. I traded it into a dealership for 8k last october, pretty good imo, paid 9k for it. Got the ZHP, couldn't be happier, it's sexy, smooth, sleek, quick, comfortable, and i drive the piss out of it every day and has never let me down yet.

[Cadeez]

Jeff, I 100% agree about the grunt. I've only driven two different E36 M3's (a '96 and a '95) and both seemed a lot faster, a lot more RAW. I don't know if I can agree with what you said about handling; the E36 M3 is supposed to handle much better, being an M3 and being lighter and more raw. With a fresh suspension, I think it would be close or a little better than the ZHP, though I wouldn't know for sure because I've never driven the E36 M3 on a track or auto-x before. Either way, the ZHP is a much better daily driver and the M3 is a much better track car.

I'm sure you are right, had my M3 been outfitted with all new OEM suspension, bushings, etc it probably would've domintated in that category as well. After all, C&D named it the best all around driving/handling car of all back in the late 90's, not a bad handle to be placed upon the M3. But my components had a lot of miles on them, I did replace the rear shocks and shock tower mounts (most common issue in the E36) which helped, but I needed a lot of help up front. It still handled good, just not as tight and precise as the ZHP, a bit of understeer as well. There is also the fact that the M3 had Toyo Proxes and my ZHP has Pilot sports, which can't hurt...

[zhpnsnv]

Love this thread, and I'd love to have a stable of ZHP (street) and E36 M3 (track/street). I can't believe I put that in print. I think my MINI (track/street) is going to kill me for it.

[captain_underpants]

I read all the comparisons on this thread and the only one I'm in agreement with is this one 100%, I was getting ready to write this post almost word for word... My '99 E36 M3 (pic below) and my current ZHP are (were) both bone stock, and my M3 would smoke my ZHP any day of the week. It's a lighter, smaller car w/ 240hp & 236ft lbs out of the box, it was built for the track. I've never even seen tq #'s for our ZHP's? I freakin loved that car, and every time I get in my ZHP and step on the gas I cry a little inside, the power just isn't there... The bottom end torque in the M3 was awesome, put your foot into it and you were gone. Traction control in the rain? Forget about it, it hardly helped and was easy to make mistakes. Also keep in mind that by the time I sold it I had 175k on the odometer, and it still went like a MF'er. As far as maintenence goes, for me there was none, that thing was bulletproof.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not ZHP bashing here fellas, just stating the facts as I see them. The suspension in my M3 was a little tired, my ZHP handles and drives like a freakin dream, it way out handles the E36 M3. The E46 itself is just a better made car, not surprising because it's newer, and I think in every way other than the powerplant it has definitely matured. They made the E36 for what 7-8 years, 92-98, 99 if we're talking about the M3, so it was pretty well polished by '99. Bottom line I love my '04 ZHP, I just wish it had the performance to match it's looks. The ZHP looks both pissed and sexy at the same time, and it should be able hang with R32's, WRX's, S4's, 996etc...but alas it is no match. M3-1/ZHP-0

http://i374.photobucket.com/albums/oo184/jcadell/DSCN1322.jpg

You described some of my favorite aspects of the M3. It could handle dd duty with no problem and still thrill when it was time. Many of my friends were surprised by how fast and fun to drive my stock M3 with 120k miles was. I really miss that car and have considered getting another one. Just not sure I wasnt to have a 12 year old car as my only car again.

From the feedback I'm getting it seems that the ZHP is like the M3 turned down a notch in the performance department but an improvement in other areas like interior quality, and practicality.

Guess I need to figure out if thats a trade off I'm willing to make, if ill want to make some mods to the zhp to give it that extra edge or if ill look at other cars.

Sent from my SCH-I500 using Tapatalk

[onepercent]

I was actually looking for an E36 M3 when I learned about the ZHP. For me, the ZHP is the better combination of daily driver, refinement, and fewer problems (due to being a newer vehicle). Also, the insurance on a ZHP appears to be far less expensive than that of an E36 M3.

The rarity of the ZHP package is cool yes, but the ///M factor is cooler (I think).

I have had the good fortune to run my ZHP against an enthusiast who was running a E36 M3, 1998 IIRC. We were on a very curvy, very quiet country road with some hilly sections and he couldn't gap me over the course of a couple miles. This surprised me because all along I knew that the M3 is lighter and slightly more powerful. I kept expecting him to pull away from me but he could not. The takeaway for me is that the cars have a similar enough performance that one is not going to dominate the other no matter what. (side note: you should have seen the dude's face when he got out of the car :eyetwitch)

You can't lose either way. For me, the ZHP is the better choice. Consider yourself fortunate to be deciding between 2 excellent choices!

[Marcus-SanDiego]

Consider yourself fortunate to be deciding between 2 excellent choices!

+1

[kaboom]

Agreed an pretty much all accounts. On local tracks the e36m outperforms a ZHP by about 2.5-3 seconds. That's on a 1:45 second mixed road course.

Both great cars, both with a nice balance, one towards race, one towards comfort, but both can do either capably.

Ian

[captain_underpants]

You can't lose either way. For me, the ZHP is the better choice. Consider yourself fortunate to be deciding between 2 excellent choices!

I don't think I'll be jumping into another E36 M3, at least not right now. I need this next car to be a DD, something I didn't have good luck with trying to do with my car. It left me stranded three times and once was out of state. Not trying to get into that again.

If I don't get the ZHP, which I'm not sure about at this point, I might go for an 06-07 WRX or something along those lines.

[KC ZHP]

Love this thread, and I'd love to have a stable of ZHP (street) and E36 M3 (track/street). I can't believe I put that in print. I think my MINI (track/street) is going to kill me for it.

Ha! Interesting to see similar situations here! I too had an R53 - purchased new, transitioned from autox to DEs...replaced with a pristine original E36 M3 for weekend / track duty. Would tend to agree with many of the write-ups here - there is no doubt that the E36 is a more raw, visceral car and handles beautifuly bone stock (less weight does make a difference - that and more usable torque down low in the S52). As a daily driver, the ZHP is more refined and still a lot of fun to drive.

[musicisfree]

I have the ZHP as my daily, I'm thinking about getting an E36 M3 as a weekend project car.

[vwpowa]

I have a 96 M3 coupe and now an 04 ZHP sedan . The m3 is faster and handles better, but the ZHP is an awesome car. Much more refined and power delivery is very smooth. Its nice to ride around in a car that has 0 rattles. I have the luxury package in my M3 so the seats are pretty comfortable. Not sure if they are more or less comfortable than the ZHP. I need some more seat time in the ZHP to make that decision. I bought my m3 a few years ago with 79k miles, i have only had one problem with it, cam position sensor. It now has 112K miles so it is over due for a cooling system overhaul. I also owned an 04 350z for a couple of years, i loved the cars performance but the seat killed my back. I let my wife drive it most of the time because of this. She was angry when we sold it.

[Mike V]

Now that I've sold the ZHP and gone back to an E36 M3, I thought I'd come back to this thread. I had been looking at replacing the ZHP with an E46 M3 and looked every day for 2+ months for the right car to come along. With the used car market the way it is, I wasn't having any luck finding what I wanted for a decent price. When a 98 M3/4/5 popped up on M3forum.net just 2.5 hours down the road from me, I decided to go check it out. It turned out to be a solid car and for an amazing price ($5k) so I bought it and sold the ZHP to a buddy in KC.

I liked the ZHP but I didn't love it. The lack of an LSD was the biggest frustration for me, especially last winter. I took the car to its first autocross a few months ago and again, the lack of LSD was irritating and I wasn't willing to spend $2k+ for an LSD. I also didn't care for the power delivery of the ZHP. Maybe it would have been livable with a tune; the car seemed to run fine but it just didn't have the typical BMW inline-6 feel that I was accustomed to.

The 98 M3 4-dr is so incredibly fun to drive. Sure it's louder, less refined and has 100k more miles but damn I love this car and I look forward to driving it every time. Another plus is that it was $14k cheaper than what I paid for the ZHP in 09. :) I will probably miss the ZHP when it comes time for the next road trip but time will tell.

I mentioned earlier in this thread that the ZHP is similar in performance to the E36 M3. Stock vs. stock, straight line performance is about the same but when it comes to the twisties, the E36 M3 wins for me. I still think the ZHP is a great car but it just wasn't the right car for me. If you're willing to drive a car that isn't as refined, I'd highly consider test driving an E36 M3.

[Marcus-SanDiego]

Mike, thanks for the write up. Always nice to get this kind of perspective.

[Mike V]

Mike, thanks for the write up. Always nice to get this kind of perspective.

No problem, Marcus. This car also came with Dinan software and Dinan intake so it feels considerably stronger than the ZHP. For the price, I couldn't be happier!

[Marcus-SanDiego]

Bonus right there. Nice acquisition.