Blackstone Oil Report

[kayger12]

For those who are interested, just got my report back from Blackstone for my recent oil change.

Oil was BMW 5w-30 and was in there for 5,600 miles (5 months).

Text portion of report as follows:

KEITH: We don't see any problems in this first report from your 3.0L BMW I-6 engine. Universal averages show normal wear after about 6,000 miles on the oil. With a similar oil run, your engine produced very comparable wear, and that's a good indication your engine is wearing as expected.

The TBN shows active additive left at 3.5. Since a reading of 1.0 is low, and no unusual contamination in the form of fuel, water, coolant, or dirt (silicon) was found, we think you'd be fine running your next oil longer. Try 8,000 miles and resample to monitor. Nice report!

[Mtnman]

Excellent keith. Good for you, and beneficial for us...sounds like we can go a little further with oil..my last change was at 7k...id like to be able to go 8 to 9.

[kayger12]

With you, David. I'm going to go 7.5k-8k this time and re-submit as they suggested.

[Mtnman]

So what is the expense involved with this testing, keith?

[kayger12]

They send you the sample container at no charge.

Basic test is $25 and gives you the levels of various metals, silica, coolant, gas, etc. in the oil.

For another $10 they do the TBN test which tells you how much additive was left in the oil.

So $35 plus shipping (I sent it UPS-- think it was $8).

Well worth the $$ imo.

[M0nk3y]

Extremely interesting. Thanks for posting this.

May do this for my car, considering it's an engine I've never worked with and I want to see what the PO did.

What was the turn-around for this?

[kayger12]

What was the turn-around for this?

Thanks for bringing that up, actually.

Super fast turn around. I shipped it UPS on Friday, April 22 and got the results via email this afternoon.

Couldn't be happier with that company.

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[Washburn]

Nice TBN.
Can we see the full report, pls? Thanks. I want to see the Pb and Si numbers.

[Mtnman]

For a man that's never held a drill, washburn, you knoe a lot about oil! Damn pharmacists! Lol

[Washburn]

LOL - Yeah i am rather obsessed with motor oils ;) I think I have 9,000 posts in the oil forum that I frequent, and right now I am on a 1-week ban from it (things do get pretty emotional in oil forums - yep), and feeling some withdrawals :(
My ban ends tomorrow though :)

[kayger12]

Here you go, Wash. Feel free to share your interpretation, please.

http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff401/Kayger12/Blackstone2011report.jpg

[Washburn]

Thanks for the full report.

holy moly! i have seen virgin oil analysis of the BMW oil and it's pretty heavy on Moly (Molybdenum [Mb]-anti-wear additive), very nice.

Lead - very low - NICE! (comes from bearings, mostly)

Like blackstone already said, all the numbers look good, but i wonder why they never commented on the fact that you added 1 qt of oil during the OC interval, which makes numbers look a bit better than reality, additives, TBN, Viscosity numbers etc etc, and the wear metal numbers, too.
( AFAIK, they didn't do a projected calculation taking the top-up 1 qt into account, and i don't think it would have been very different, I am just nit-picking) it's not a big concern, and I think you have a nicely wearing engine, and I am also currently doing a 8k mile interval, (using Syntec Euro 0w-30), that's the magic number of miles to get a good idea of how good the oil/engine/price benefit combo is playing out.

Next time, if you do a 8k mile analysis, perhaps you can ask them to make a comment on the amount of oil added during the run, and how it affects the numbers. BUT like i said, 1 qt in a 7qt capacity may not mean much at all, so don't let it take away from the fact that you have a nice UOA.

[kayger12]

Thanks for the full report.

holy moly! i have seen virgin oil analysis of the BMW oil and it's pretty heavy on Moly (Molybdenum [Mb]-anti-wear additive), very nice.

Like blackstone already said, all the numbers look good, but i wonder why they never commented on the fact that you added 1 qt of oil during the OC interval, which makes numbers look a bit better than reality, additives, TBN, Viscosity numbers etc etc, and the wear metal numbers, too.
( AFAIK, they didn't do a projected calculation taking the top-up 1 qt into account, and i don't think it would have been very different, I am just nit-picking) it's not a big concern, and I think you have a nicely wearing engine, and I am also currently doing a 8k mile interval, (using Syntec Euro 0w-30), that's the magic number of miles to get a good idea of how good the oil/engine/price benefit combo is playing out.

Next time, if you do a 8k mile analysis, perhaps you can ask them to make a comment on the amount of oil added during the run, and how it affects the numbers. BUT like i said, 1 qt in a 7qt capacity may not mean much at all, so don't let it take away from the fact that you have a nice UOA.

Very good. Thanks for the feedback, Wash. The 1qt added during this last run was due at least partially to a leaking VCG and Vanos job. Hoping I won't need to add as much this time around.

[az3579]

Very good. Thanks for the feedback, Wash. The 1qt added during this last run was due at least partially to a leaking VCG and Vanos job. Hoping I won't need to add as much this time around.

I had to add 1-1.5 quarts over the time of my last oil change (6k). What the heck? :(
I don't have a leaking VCG or VANOS...

[kayger12]

I had to add 1-1.5 quarts over the time of my last oil change (6k). What the heck? :(
I don't have a leaking VCG or VANOS...

Have you checked your oil filter housing gasket?


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[az3579]

Have you checked your oil filter housing gasket?


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There are no leaks that I see...

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[Washburn]

I had to add 1-1.5 quarts over the time of my last oil change (6k). What the heck? :(
I don't have a leaking VCG or VANOS...

Which oil were you using?

[kayger12]

There are no leaks that I see...

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Have a look here just to make sure.
http://www.e46fanatics.com/forum/showpost.php?p=9614732&postcount=12

[kpro]

Thanks for sharing this Keith. I have a few cars I want to test and the old place we used to use here in Cbus shut its doors a couple of years ago.

I've been changing my oil every 7,500 mi. using BMW oil. I think I may do this analysis too, as I'm curious. I never check my oil on this car...baaaad habit, i know. My vanos problem isn't near as bad now that the oil was changed Monday...coincidence? ooops :(

[az3579]

Thanks Keith, will check it out.

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[zhpnsnv]

If you want hours of reading and head-scratching,

www.bobistheoilguy.com


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[spencers]

^ BITOG is an excellent resource.

[Mike V]

If you want hours of reading and head-scratching,

www.bobistheoilguy.com



I burned a couple hours on that site a few days ago. :)

I have the German Castrol ready to go. I like this oil analysis idea. I think I'll order a kit and put the GC in when the kit arrives. The engine currently has Mobil 1 in it.

[az3579]

Am I the only one who thinks all this oil stuff is way too blown out of proportion?

[danewilson77]

Am I the only one who thinks all this oil stuff is way too blown out of proportion?

Yes.

[az3579]

Yes.

Why?

[danewilson77]

Why?

I honestly don't know why you're the only one.....


We are all to some point OCD about our cars. Oil quality Analysis and engine health are 2 items within our control somewhat. So...we care about it.

[az3579]

I honestly don't know why you're the only one.....


We are all to some point OCD about our cars. Oil quality Analysis and engine health are 2 items within our control somewhat. So...we care about it.

But as long as you do regular oil changes with the correct weight of oil of a reputable brand, why does it really matter? What difference will it really make? My previous car ran 340k+ on whatever oil was cheapest. Everything was clean under the valve cover and everything ran perfectly...

I'm just trying to understand why it matters if you get Oil A vs Oil B if you are doing regular changes with a reputable brand. The most important thing about oil changes is that you do them regularly...
In my eyes, it's sort of like the air intake debacle; it doesn't make that much of a difference. That's why I'd like to understand why everyone is making a big deal over it; perhaps there's a reason I don't know about.

[danewilson77]

It matters to me. Thats all I can speak to. I want to know the data my engine yields (Good indicator of how well PO took care of the car as well). I want to replace parts on my car that "don't matter". Its my hobby...I wanna have fun with it.

Will you please...just let me have fun with it?

Why do you track your car? It really doesn't matter, does it? Oh...I see...you like to have fun and push yourself and your car.

Oil lab analysis results are fun to me....and sometimes yield important information.

[az3579]

It matters to me. Thats all I can speak to. I want to know the data my engine yields (Good indicator of how well PO took care of the car as well). I want to replace parts on my car that "don't matter". Its my hobby...I wanna have fun with it.

Will you please...just let me have fun with it?

Why do you track your car? It really doesn't matter, does it? Oh...I see...you like to have fun and push yourself and your car.

Oil lab analysis results are fun to me....and sometimes yield important information.

There's no need to get defensive, DW. I was just asking why so I could understand what the point of the analysis is. :)

[spencers]

Am I the only one who thinks all this oil stuff is way too blown out of proportion?

Nope!

[danewilson77]

Nope!

See there BP.....you got a buddy. All is well. Not defensive......but I know you're a smart guy BP, and what I said in the post before....I know...you knew.

I guess what I tried to say was this. If you have never analysed your oil...and you do.....and the results are unsat....or show excessive wear....I think that would be good info to know regarding longevity.

If you analyse your oil and its all good to go.....its more of a re-assurance that maybe the car was cared for as it should have been. In addition to that....if you're changing your oil at an increased frequency....the TBN may recommend that you wait a little bit longer.

[az3579]

If you analyse your oil and its all good to go.....its more of a re-assurance that maybe the car was cared for as it should have been. In addition to that....if you're changing your oil at an increased frequency....the TBN may recommend that you wait a little bit longer.

So it'd probably be worth doing it once just to know where one stands...

[kayger12]

Am I the only one who thinks all this oil stuff is way too blown out of proportion?

Ok-- so here's my deal, BP.

It's a thread about oil changes, results of running a specific oil over a specific time, and oil analysis in general, which was specifically startedfor people who are interested.

If you think it's blown out of proportion, that's fine, but stating it in this thread serves no purpose but to bait someone into an argument about it.

I'm glad your last engine lasted over 300k.

I'm glad you're comfortable not even knowing what oil is in your crankcase right now.

I hope your current motor runs 500k miles without so much as a hiccup.

If you, Spence, or anyone else thinks it's silly or unnecessary that most of us are anal about our oil brand and change intervals, that's cool. You're entitled to your opinions. However, in this particular thread, that opinion wasn't asked for nor was it necessary to post it, as it does not in any way serve the thread. Normally when a question like that is asked, it is used as a segue to an argument-- you know the answer that you're likely to get (in this case, 'No, it's not blown out of proportion') and are already prepared to make your case for why you think it is blown out of proportion.

Next thing you know, we end up with several pages of useless back and forth-- like every other forum out there.

At the end of the day, just not necessary.

[az3579]

You think I'm trying to start an argument? I'm trying to start a debate so we could extract useful information about why this is applicable. Note that I haven't used any of the words you said, such as "silly", which is what sparks an argument. Everything I said was worded carefully to prevent confusion as to what I mean, and yet for some reason this isn't working.

Nevermind then, I won't start something that could bring out useful information about the pros and cons.

[kayger12]

You think I'm trying to start an argument?

Honestly, yes.

And this post would look like a second attempt.

If you would like a debate about the merits of oil analysis, feel free to start your own thread.

If you want to discuss this further, feel free to PM me.

Otherwise, we've wasted enough space OT in this thread.

Moving on...

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[danewilson77]

So it'd probably be worth doing it once just to know where one stands...

Not necessarily. I'm big on trend analysis.....the analysis of changes over time .

Ugh.......

[zhpnsnv]

Am I the only one who thinks all this oil stuff is way too blown out of proportion?

See the issue here is with the "blown out of proportion" which is basically the same thing as calling something "silly." Not what you meant? Cool. We all do that at times. I get that you weren't trying to goad participants in this thread.

I'd say something like this: While I care very much about the health of my engine, I'm probably not going to do repeated oil analyses and instead bank on the stock oil on 7,500 mile intervals. That comment sets up my preference and doesn't denigrate anyone else's.

That's why this site is cool - people think about their words carefully then use them with respect at the forefront of their thoughts. As others stated, there are excellent ways to start debate. Calling something out of proportion doesn't seem to be how it works here.

Back to the point, to the point no fakin' (cookin' MC's like a pound of bacon): I love reading BITOG and other people's oil analyses. I definitely plan to do at least one on my car to see the engine's health, and I certainly don't fault anyone for wanting this substantive data on their cars. We all pore over so many details about our cars, why shouldn't oil be one of them? At the same time, I don't fault anyone who ignores this sort of data and sees great success with the longevity of their engines.

[danewilson77]

See the issue here is with the "blown out of proportion" which is basically the same thing as calling something "silly." Not what you meant? Cool. We all do that at times. I get that you weren't trying to goad participants in this thread.

I'd say something like this: While I care very much about the health of my engine, I'm probably not going to do repeated oil analyses and instead bank on the stock oil on 7,500 mile intervals. That comment sets up my preference and doesn't denigrate anyone else's.

That's why this site is cool - people think about their words carefully then use them with respect at the forefront of their thoughts. As others stated, there are excellent ways to start debate. Calling something out of proportion doesn't seem to be how it works here.

Back to the point, to the point no fakin' (cookin' MC's like a pound of bacon): I love reading BITOG and other people's oil analyses. I definitely plan to do at least one on my car to see the engine's health, and I certainly don't fault anyone for wanting this substantive data on their cars. We all pore over so many details about our cars, why shouldn't oil be one of them? At the same time, I don't fault anyone who ignores this sort of data and sees great success with the longevity of their engines.

+1....+1.....+1

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[spencers]

If you, Spence, or anyone else thinks it's silly or unnecessary that most of us are anal about our oil brand and change intervals, that's cool.
I don't think it's silly or unnecessary. I commend the guys that care. As a scientist, I believe data analysis is king. I simply agreed that the oil stuff is blown out of proportion.
I've spent hours reading BITOG. Lots of great information there. From that, I've been able to glean and make well informed decisions about the oil I run (which actually is not BMW-spec).

[kayger12]

Roger that, Spence.

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[danewilson77]

I don't think it's silly or unnecessary. I commend the guys that care. As a scientist, I believe data analysis is king. I simply agreed that the oil stuff is blown out of proportion.
I've spent hours reading BITOG. Lots of great information there. From that, I've been able to glean and make well informed decisions about the oil I run (which actually is not BMW-spec).

What do you run with Spencer?

[spencers]

M1 10w40 Synth Hi-Mi

[danewilson77]

M1 10w40 Synth Hi-Mi

OK.........

[danewilson77]

Bumpin the Blackstone thread. I got excellent news today.

http://i1015.photobucket.com/albums/af278/nicee46/Imola%20Bimmer/BlackstoneZHP2.jpg

[kayger12]

Looks great, DW.

Good news.

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[kayger12]

Just got the Blackstone report from my latest oil change.

Going to go for 10k miles next time. A little nervous about it, but this is the second time I've had plenty of additive left.

I let them know that I used the Motive Power Extractor to get the sample. I was a little worried about cross-contamination as I've used it for brake and power steering fluid.

This was also the first full oil run with the BMW Performance Intake doing the air filtering.

http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff401/Kayger12/Blackstone2.jpg

[danewilson77]

Great stats KG.

HTC Thunderbolt+TT

[SoarinZHP]

Interesting.

I wonder if they would be interested in being a 'national presenting sponsor?'

As not special car drivers, I'd be interested to know how my not special engine is wearing based on how I drive it....

[nike001]

I just ordered my kit! Hopefully the kit ships out fast and not the 1-2 weeks like their site said.

If only I can remember what my miles were when I changed my oil last.... UGH. :p

[redwagon]

Just to toss my 2 cents in here.....I've used Blackstone for aircraft engine analysis for many many years. One sample really doesnt mean that much, although of course it can indicate that something major is going on. The trick is to use it on a regular basis and look at the trend. While they normalize it based on oil added during the period and such, its best if you do exactly the same thing each time to eliminate the variables- ie initial fill is the same, added oil is about the same, and operating hours or miles too. The trends over time will show whats going on, and if any issues. Typical in an aircraft you look at Silicon for induction leaks, nickel for valve guides, iron can be cylinder wall corrosion or wear, copper can mean bearings and so on. Since different manufacturers can use different metals for diffferent purposes, its goodness to watch any increasing trends and then link them to materials used in the engine (or transmission). Once you have trends established then you can perhaps do it every other oil change etc.

This reminds me of something else I do on my ZHP that I learned via aviation and thats inspecting the oil filter carefully for particles. In the BMW there is no excuse not to do that, its so easy- no filter cutting!!

And BTW, oil analysis isnt everything, its a good indicator, but there are many documented cases of people finding large metal particles in their filter media, and having good oil analysis and visa versa. Its a good tool but you cant depend on it for everything....

Personally I'll save the oil analysis costs on the car and use that $$ towards the airplane, its getting a lot more expensive to feed these days!

hope thats helpful!!

Tim

[kayger12]

Good info, Tim. Thanks for posting up.

My primary reason for using Blackstone is the TBN- so I know if I can get more out of my $70 oil change.

Secondary is to make sure there isn't something major going on.

I can definitely see the value in trend information- I'll most likely continue getting an analysis at every change.



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[shanneba]

I have data from my non ZHP 330Ci from 21,000 to 100,000 miles posted over at BITOG if anyone wants to see it.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2431085#Post2431085

[danewilson77]

I have data from my non ZHP 330Ci from 21,000 to 100,000 miles posted over at BITOG if anyone wants to see it.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2431085#Post2431085

Thanks for the link. No word on the Cu yet?

HTC Thunderbolt+TT

[LivesNearCostco]

Here's my first UOA. Lead is higher than expected. Oil is Total/Elf Quartz INEO 5w-30 synthetic.

3428

[danewilson77]

So....the miles on the oil sample was 8,473....they say that the Al and Pb (Piston and bearing wear), could be caused by extended use of oil from beyond 6k miles....yet he recommends running this sample for 9k miles?

Does.not.compute.:scratchinghead

[LivesNearCostco]

I was also scratching my head at that one! Maybe time to email them some questions.

[danewilson77]

I was also scratching my head at that one! Maybe time to email them some questions.

Yeah... Doesn't make sense. I would recommend a 6k change then send off a sample. See if the Al and/or Pb levels come down.

HTC Thunderbolt+TT

[LivesNearCostco]

Good idea. Might also send a sample of virgin Total Quartz to see whether it has sodium naturally and what the TBN levels are with zero miles on it. But that would cost another $25/$35.

Edit: I also installed a UUC magnetic oil plug to capture metal particles, but I see two catches. It shouldn't help for larger particles that the filter would catch anyway, and it won't help for non-magnetic particles like aluminum. I don't think lead is magnetic either.

[kayger12]

Anyone ever send a diff fluid sample to Blackstone?

[shanneba]

Anyone ever send a diff fluid sample to Blackstone?

I've sent in three samples, the results are all posted at BobIsTheOilGuy -
The first sample is the factory fill with 38,000 miles, the second was taken at the time I had the Quaife diff installed, the third is after 27,000 miles with the Quaife unit. I'll probably do another one when I reach about 110,000 miles.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=123705&Number=1748579#Post1748579

[danewilson77]

I've sent in three samples, the results are all posted at BobIsTheOilGuy -
The first sample is the factory fill with 38,000 miles, the second was taken at the time I had the Quaife diff installed, the third is after 27,000 miles with the Quaife unit. I'll probably do another one when I reach about 110,000 miles.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=123705&Number=1748579#Post1748579

Good read. Thanks

[kayger12]

I've sent in three samples, the results are all posted at BobIsTheOilGuy -
The first sample is the factory fill with 38,000 miles, the second was taken at the time I had the Quaife diff installed, the third is after 27,000 miles with the Quaife unit. I'll probably do another one when I reach about 110,000 miles.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=123705&Number=174 8579#Post1748579

Appreciate the info. Thanks.

Sent from my outdated Droid X

[LivesNearCostco]

I emailed Blackstone. They said my aluminum and lead levels, while higher than normal, were not super high, and could be a result of tracking the car and the longer oil change interval. Because higher RPMs would mean more wear per mile than low RPM driving. They were not familiar with the Total INEO Quartz MC3 oil so could not say if it has sodium additives, but said most Valvoline synthetic oils do use sodium additives (most Penzoil synthetics do not). The oil I used 2 changes ago was Valvoline SYNpower 5w-30, then Penzoil Platinum, then the Total Quartz (which got sent to Blackstone). Apparently enough sodium could have been leftover from the Valvoline to elevate the sodium level in the Total Quartz.

I'm sending them a virgin sample of the Total Quartz MC3 to see if it contains sodium, and what kinds of TBNs it has when fresh. Then change my oil at 5,000 or 6,000 miles as you suggested. If the sodium isn't coming from the Total oil or leftover from the SYNpower, that could only mean head gasket issues!

So....the miles on the oil sample was 8,473....they say that the Al and Pb (Piston and bearing wear), could be caused by extended use of oil from beyond 6k miles....yet he recommends running this sample for 9k miles?

Does.not.compute.:scratchinghead

[johnnyrad]

Bumpin the Blackstone thread. I got excellent news today.

http://i1015.photobucket.com/albums/af278/nicee46/Imola%20Bimmer/BlackstoneZHP2.jpg

Now that's what I'm talkin about! Nice findings there DW. Can't wait to get my kits and do see what comes back..It's like your car's report card!!

Edit: oops my bad this report is a tad bit old..but still good.

[danewilson77]

Now that's what I'm talkin about! Nice findings there DW. Can't wait to get my kits and do see what comes back..It's like your car's report card!!

Edit: oops my bad this report is a tad bit old..but still good.

Kinda pissed it doesn't have mileage. This was done about 30k ago?

HTC Thunderbolt+TT

[johnnyrad]

Kinda pissed it doesn't have mileage. This was done about 30k ago?

HTC Thunderbolt+TT

The report notes 127,000 miles...Isn't that the mileage on the car at the time of sample??

[danewilson77]

The report notes 127,000 miles...Isn't that the mileage on the car at the time of sample??

Got it. Missed it on phone. 23k miles old.

HTC Thunderbolt+TT

[johnnyrad]

Got it. Missed it on phone. 23k miles old.

HTC Thunderbolt+TT

Got it. Dane, since your report yields positive results, when do you do a follow up test? Or do you?

[danewilson77]

Got it. Dane, since your report yields positive results, when do you do a follow up test? Or do you?

Whenever... Really. Maybe I will do a 50K test.... At around 173k miles.

I'm still doing 7500 miles changes, so I think I'm good, and will check then.
HTC Thunderbolt+TT

[johnnyrad]

Whenever... Really. Maybe I will do a 50K test.... At around 173k miles.

I'm still doing 7500 miles changes, so I think I'm good, and will check then.
HTC Thunderbolt+TT

10-4...seems like you got it spot on so far.

[LivesNearCostco]

Here's the Blackstone NOA/VOA report for the oil I'm running now, Total Quartz INEO MC3 5w-30. Looks like normal viscosity, reasonable amount of anti-wear Zinc/Phosphorous, and decent TBN when new. But no sodium, so the sodium in my UOA was either from the old Valvoline I ran before or from coolant. Only way to know is another UOA in the future.
3647

Edit: I think the new TBNs are slightly lower than some of the other samples posted here. Didn't someone's Mobil 0w-40 Euro or BMW/Castrol oil show TBNs around 9?

[danewilson77]

Coolant? No comprehendo.

HTC Thunderbolt+TT

[LivesNearCostco]

Sodium in the used oil means either a sodium-based oil additive or coolant contamination from a leaking headgasket/head. Virgin oil analysis says my current oil (Total INEO Quartz MC3) does not have any sodium additives. My used oil sample had sodium, so it either came from the Valvoline synthetic used 2 changes ago or from coolant contamination. Blackstone said in their experience, Valvoline SYNpower oils contain sodium additives but Penzoil Platinum does not.

If 10% of old oil doesn't drain, my oil sample was 90% Total Quartz, 9% Penzoil, and 1% Valvoline. If 20% of old oil remains per change, my oil was 4% Valvoline. The question is did the sodium in my used oil sample come from the Valvoline 2 changes ago or from coolant?

[danewilson77]

Sodium in the used oil means either a sodium-based oil additive or coolant contamination from a leaking headgasket/head. Virgin oil analysis says my current oil (Total INEO Quartz MC3) does not have any sodium additives. My used oil sample had sodium, so it either came from the Valvoline synthetic used 2 changes ago or from coolant contamination. Blackstone said in their experience, Valvoline SYNpower oils contain sodium additives but Penzoil Platinum does not.

If 10% of old oil doesn't drain, my oil sample was 90% Total Quartz, 9% Penzoil, and 1% Valvoline. If 20% of old oil remains per change, my oil was 4% Valvoline. The question is did the sodium in my used oil sample come from the Valvoline 2 changes ago or from coolant?

I would say if oil level and coolant level stays constant, it's not coolant.

HTC Thunderbolt+TT

[LivesNearCostco]

Short answer: I agree with you 100%

Long answer: I agree with you 100% but I'm not sure if my coolant level is staying constant! Several weeks ago, right before my first Blackstone UOA, I thought maybe it was dropping very slowly. I was watching it like a HAWK (the bird, not the brake pads). Then I took my car for the tail light recall and Crevier BMW was super nice because in addition to giving me a free 128 loaner, they topped off my coolant, brake fluid, and washer fluid (and maybe other stuff). With the ET bobber at max float, I couldn't tell if I had slow coolant loss. Last week when I put the new T-stat on, I adjusted coolant level so the float was not quite at the top of the tank so any coolant loss will be easier to spot.

There has been zero evidence of oil or exhaust gases in the coolant, and my oil consumption seems okay (1.5 quarts in 8000 miles). So I'm hoping it was just sodium from the old Valvoline SYNpower oil. Part of my concern is I overheated the car around June 2011 and let it run in the red for a few minutes.

[imola red zhp]

Short answer: I agree with you 100%

Long answer: I agree with you 100% but I'm not sure if my coolant level is staying constant! Several weeks ago, right before my first Blackstone UOA, I thought maybe it was dropping very slowly. I was watching it like a HAWK (the bird, not the brake pads). Then I took my car for the tail light recall and Crevier BMW was super nice because in addition to giving me a free 128 loaner, they topped off my coolant, brake fluid, and washer fluid (and maybe other stuff). With the ET bobber at max float, I couldn't tell if I had slow coolant loss. Last week when I put the new T-stat on, I adjusted coolant level so the float was not quite at the top of the tank so any coolant loss will be easier to spot.

There has been zero evidence of oil or exhaust gases in the coolant, and my oil consumption seems okay (1.5 quarts in 8000 miles). So I'm hoping it was just sodium from the old Valvoline SYNpower oil. Part of my concern is I overheated the car around June 2011 and let it run in the red for a few minutes.

This is heavy stuff, IMO
I think you are fine and deduce its the older oil causing the sodium readings....
sent from Dennis' Droid using tapatalk

[danewilson77]

Yeah......in addition to this....I believe there are other indications of a leaking head gasket.

If you see coolant leaking from the water pump, I would pressure-test it and pinpoint the leak and fix that first; oil seepage isn't necessarily abnormal.
Typical symptoms of a blown head gasket may include these: bubbles of air coming up into your radiator (remove cap before starting); a leaking radiator; milkshake-colored oil; overheating; rough running; coolant or oil running from head; spark plug(s) that have a green tint (if green coolant); white-colored or sweet-smelling exhaust.
White smoke from your tail pipe, or loosing coolant through your overflow. Take the cap off and rev the engine: if you see bubbles, or if it comes out, you'll know.
A blown head gasket will leave a dark smell in the radiator. And you will have high back pressure coming though your radiator cap.
Take your car to a radiator shop to have a detector installed: If the blue liquid inside a "bulb" turns yellow, you have a leak.
Beware that if you drive for too long and it overheats, a blown engine will be your outcome.
A blown head gasket can go out in different areas causing different symptoms. Do a compression test to give you some idea. Don't confuse low compression for a bad head gasket, though. A bad valve can lower compression. And a bad ring.
There are lots of clues you can look for. When in doubt and you have tried everything, have the head checked out by a well-established machine shop first, to see if the head was the problem. This way you're not wasting your time replacing the gasket.
My car once had a blown head gasket. I had a great deal of coolant loss. The engine lacked power and ran poorly. It had white smoke coming out the tail pipe. And it overheated very quickly. Also, it had water in the oil.
A quick way to check: Look at your spark plugs; if coolant squirts out, you definitely have a blown head gasket!
Low compression does not necessarily mean a blown head gasket, but it is a good indicator if there is a sharp drop in compression on one or two cylinders, with no drop in the others. Sometimes a blown head gasket will cause a whistling or wheezing sound, but not always. It will not always cause water to enter the oil - or oil to enter the water - but they are signs to look for. Overheating will almost always occur, due to the exhaust entering the coolant. Check your overflow bottle for exhaust smells. Watch for bubbles or overflow of coolant from the radiator while running the engine. Check for muddy gray-looking oil or bubbles on the dipstick.
Often (but not always), a blown head gasket will also cause deposit of water on a piece of cardboard held an inch from the tailpipe output while the engine is running (when this is happening, it is likely that the catalytic converter has been ruined and the muffler will corrode in short order as well). Sometimes drops of water will be seen dropping from the end of the tailpipe.
Another clue: Turn on the heater; often when the head gasket is blown an odor of antifreeze and synthetic rubber will emanate from the heater vents.
Many of the symptoms of a blown head gasket can be caused by some other problem in the cooling system, without the head gasket being damaged. Conversely, other problems with the cooling system can cause a blown head gasket and/or warped head. For example, a corroding radiator can send chunks of rust through the cooling system which take out the thermostat and water pump. If the thermostat is old, sticking and corroding, it can send those chunks through the system and take out the water pump or cause a blockage in the radiator, etc.
Radiator leaks can be the primary cause, or a result, of failures in other cooling system components.
Don't keep driving with the car overheated, especially if your engine has an aluminum head; you are likely to warp it. If it is warped beyond a certain tolerance, it cannot be planed and will have to be replaced when the head gasket is replaced.
One of the most common tell-tale signs is a milky-gray ring around your oil cap. When coolant enters the engine oil through a crack in the head or through a blown gasket, it evaporates and leaves a milky ring around the oil cap. Another easy way to tell is to check your oil dipstick. Change your oil and pull out the dipstick. Make sure that you take note of how far up the dipstick the oil is. Top off your cooling system and fill your cooling reservoir to the top. Screw radiator cap back on and start engine. Run engine for about 20-30 minutes or until it reaches normal operating temperature. Allow engine to cool (engine must cool completely to get accurate oil reading). Check oil dipstick again. If the oil has a watery appearance and has risen noticeably up the dipstick, then you probably have a blown head gasket or a warped head. Also, look for a sweet-smelling liquid coming out of your tailpipe. Any of the above symptoms could be the result of a blown head gasket.
The easiest way to tell is with a compression meter. This replaces the spark plug and lets you know what compression each cylinder is running at. If your compression is abnormally low, then you have a blown head gasket or a warped head. (Note: check the repair manual for appropriate compression of each cylinder.)
This can be detected in a variety of ways: One way is to note whether that part of the engine block is leaking fluid. This is difficult to determine since there are many other parts of the engine nearby that can also leak fluids, especially when a vehicle is parked in one place for more than a few hours. One of the best indications of a blown, or nearly blown, head gasket in most automobiles is when the cooling system appears to be malfunctioning. The cooling system's efficiency and performance can be directly affected by the quality of the head gasket.
If your radiator is getting low on water often, this is a sign. The water could be discharged through the tailpipe on your automobile. Another sign is if your car motor has a miss in the engine. The water could be going in on top of the cylinders. This will foul the plugs and cause it to miss.
There are a few simple indicators you can check for with the engine cold and not running: 1) contaminated oil - it will have a milky appearance from the water mixing in the oil 2) oil on the top of the coolant inside the radiator (if your vehicle has a remote header tank you may not get this); 3) Have someone crank (remove the coil lead or disable the electronic ignition) the engine on the starter with the radiator cap or coolant jacket bleed hose/bolt removed. If the coolant pulses up and down or blows bubbles, you could be in trouble. If you find any of these symptoms move on to removing the spark plugs (label the plugs and the leads as you remove them, so you can put them back in the same place) and again crank the engine on the starter. Depending on how badly your head or gasket is gone, you may get coolant or oil coming out of the plug holes. Inspection of the plugs will also reveal problems during combustion: if you have rusty flaky deposits on the plugs, you may be burning off water; and if you have a heavy carbon, you are burning oil. If you have any of the first 3 items listed (water in oil, oil in water, or pulsing coolant - but don't get any result from checking the plugs) change the oil and water as appropriate, then warm up the engine without the radiator cap on (or the bleeder hose/bolt) and watch for bubbles as the engine warms up. Put the cap back on the cooling system and take the vehicle for a short drive, or run the engine till the entire system is up to temperature and then check the oil for contamination. Having these symptoms is not always indicative of a blown head gasket; usually if the gasket is gone, there is going to be some warping of the head and or block of the engine.
Loss of engine coolant with no external leaks, a continuous stream of bubbles can be seen with the radiator cap off, black gummy and sometimes crusty stuff around the radiator

Several common signs of a blown head gasket:
Blue/white smoke coming out the tail pipe which indicates oil is burning
Dripping oil from the gasket itself
Carbon Monoxide or hydrocarbons in the cooling reservoir
Excessive coolant loss with no obvious source of leakage
Loss of power or a rough engine due to compression loss
Water mixing with oil
Oil mixing with water
Low compression in 2 or more adjacent cylinders
Remove dipstick and let a drop of fluid fall on hot part of engine - oil will smoke water will "sizzle"

[imola red zhp]

^^^^^^ what can I say to that, that blows my head gasket. :D
sent from Dennis' Droid using tapatalk

[LivesNearCostco]

Whoa. Let me emphasize with a little Keanu Reeves video clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PkFyGNjaQ8k

Reading all of that makes me feel better, as I don't have any of the other symptoms of a blown head gasket.

[danewilson77]

Whoa. Let me emphasize with a little Keanu Reeves video clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PkFyGNjaQ8k

Reading all of that makes me feel better, as I don't have any of the other symptoms of a blown head gasket.

Yes. That was the main point I wanted communicated.

HTC Thunderbolt+TT

[Johnmadd]

Yeah......in addition to this....I believe there are other indications of a leaking head gasket.

If you see coolant leaking from the water pump, I would pressure-test it and pinpoint the leak and fix that first; oil seepage isn't necessarily abnormal.
Typical symptoms of a blown head gasket may include these: bubbles of air coming up into your radiator (remove cap before starting); a leaking radiator; milkshake-colored oil; overheating; rough running; coolant or oil running from head; spark plug(s) that have a green tint (if green coolant); white-colored or sweet-smelling exhaust.
White smoke from your tail pipe, or loosing coolant through your overflow. Take the cap off and rev the engine: if you see bubbles, or if it comes out, you'll know.
A blown head gasket will leave a dark smell in the radiator. And you will have high back pressure coming though your radiator cap.
Take your car to a radiator shop to have a detector installed: If the blue liquid inside a "bulb" turns yellow, you have a leak.
Beware that if you drive for too long and it overheats, a blown engine will be your outcome.
A blown head gasket can go out in different areas causing different symptoms. Do a compression test to give you some idea. Don't confuse low compression for a bad head gasket, though. A bad valve can lower compression. And a bad ring.
There are lots of clues you can look for. When in doubt and you have tried everything, have the head checked out by a well-established machine shop first, to see if the head was the problem. This way you're not wasting your time replacing the gasket.
My car once had a blown head gasket. I had a great deal of coolant loss. The engine lacked power and ran poorly. It had white smoke coming out the tail pipe. And it overheated very quickly. Also, it had water in the oil.
A quick way to check: Look at your spark plugs; if coolant squirts out, you definitely have a blown head gasket!
Low compression does not necessarily mean a blown head gasket, but it is a good indicator if there is a sharp drop in compression on one or two cylinders, with no drop in the others. Sometimes a blown head gasket will cause a whistling or wheezing sound, but not always. It will not always cause water to enter the oil - or oil to enter the water - but they are signs to look for. Overheating will almost always occur, due to the exhaust entering the coolant. Check your overflow bottle for exhaust smells. Watch for bubbles or overflow of coolant from the radiator while running the engine. Check for muddy gray-looking oil or bubbles on the dipstick.
Often (but not always), a blown head gasket will also cause deposit of water on a piece of cardboard held an inch from the tailpipe output while the engine is running (when this is happening, it is likely that the catalytic converter has been ruined and the muffler will corrode in short order as well). Sometimes drops of water will be seen dropping from the end of the tailpipe.
Another clue: Turn on the heater; often when the head gasket is blown an odor of antifreeze and synthetic rubber will emanate from the heater vents.
Many of the symptoms of a blown head gasket can be caused by some other problem in the cooling system, without the head gasket being damaged. Conversely, other problems with the cooling system can cause a blown head gasket and/or warped head. For example, a corroding radiator can send chunks of rust through the cooling system which take out the thermostat and water pump. If the thermostat is old, sticking and corroding, it can send those chunks through the system and take out the water pump or cause a blockage in the radiator, etc.
Radiator leaks can be the primary cause, or a result, of failures in other cooling system components.
Don't keep driving with the car overheated, especially if your engine has an aluminum head; you are likely to warp it. If it is warped beyond a certain tolerance, it cannot be planed and will have to be replaced when the head gasket is replaced.
One of the most common tell-tale signs is a milky-gray ring around your oil cap. When coolant enters the engine oil through a crack in the head or through a blown gasket, it evaporates and leaves a milky ring around the oil cap. Another easy way to tell is to check your oil dipstick. Change your oil and pull out the dipstick. Make sure that you take note of how far up the dipstick the oil is. Top off your cooling system and fill your cooling reservoir to the top. Screw radiator cap back on and start engine. Run engine for about 20-30 minutes or until it reaches normal operating temperature. Allow engine to cool (engine must cool completely to get accurate oil reading). Check oil dipstick again. If the oil has a watery appearance and has risen noticeably up the dipstick, then you probably have a blown head gasket or a warped head. Also, look for a sweet-smelling liquid coming out of your tailpipe. Any of the above symptoms could be the result of a blown head gasket.
The easiest way to tell is with a compression meter. This replaces the spark plug and lets you know what compression each cylinder is running at. If your compression is abnormally low, then you have a blown head gasket or a warped head. (Note: check the repair manual for appropriate compression of each cylinder.)
This can be detected in a variety of ways: One way is to note whether that part of the engine block is leaking fluid. This is difficult to determine since there are many other parts of the engine nearby that can also leak fluids, especially when a vehicle is parked in one place for more than a few hours. One of the best indications of a blown, or nearly blown, head gasket in most automobiles is when the cooling system appears to be malfunctioning. The cooling system's efficiency and performance can be directly affected by the quality of the head gasket.
If your radiator is getting low on water often, this is a sign. The water could be discharged through the tailpipe on your automobile. Another sign is if your car motor has a miss in the engine. The water could be going in on top of the cylinders. This will foul the plugs and cause it to miss.
There are a few simple indicators you can check for with the engine cold and not running: 1) contaminated oil - it will have a milky appearance from the water mixing in the oil 2) oil on the top of the coolant inside the radiator (if your vehicle has a remote header tank you may not get this); 3) Have someone crank (remove the coil lead or disable the electronic ignition) the engine on the starter with the radiator cap or coolant jacket bleed hose/bolt removed. If the coolant pulses up and down or blows bubbles, you could be in trouble. If you find any of these symptoms move on to removing the spark plugs (label the plugs and the leads as you remove them, so you can put them back in the same place) and again crank the engine on the starter. Depending on how badly your head or gasket is gone, you may get coolant or oil coming out of the plug holes. Inspection of the plugs will also reveal problems during combustion: if you have rusty flaky deposits on the plugs, you may be burning off water; and if you have a heavy carbon, you are burning oil. If you have any of the first 3 items listed (water in oil, oil in water, or pulsing coolant - but don't get any result from checking the plugs) change the oil and water as appropriate, then warm up the engine without the radiator cap on (or the bleeder hose/bolt) and watch for bubbles as the engine warms up. Put the cap back on the cooling system and take the vehicle for a short drive, or run the engine till the entire system is up to temperature and then check the oil for contamination. Having these symptoms is not always indicative of a blown head gasket; usually if the gasket is gone, there is going to be some warping of the head and or block of the engine.
Loss of engine coolant with no external leaks, a continuous stream of bubbles can be seen with the radiator cap off, black gummy and sometimes crusty stuff around the radiator

Several common signs of a blown head gasket:
Blue/white smoke coming out the tail pipe which indicates oil is burning
Dripping oil from the gasket itself
Carbon Monoxide or hydrocarbons in the cooling reservoir
Excessive coolant loss with no obvious source of leakage
Loss of power or a rough engine due to compression loss
Water mixing with oil
Oil mixing with water
Low compression in 2 or more adjacent cylinders
Remove dipstick and let a drop of fluid fall on hot part of engine - oil will smoke water will "sizzle"

Longest post ever. Good stuff DW.

[danewilson77]

Longest post ever. Good stuff DW.

Simple copy and paste. But I wanted the info for us.

HTC Thunderbolt+TT

[Johnmadd]

Simple copy and paste. But I wanted the info for us.

HTC Thunderbolt+TT

Ahh, I thought it was a Dane Wilson original. Still good info, thanks.

[shanneba]

Sodium in the used oil means either a sodium-based oil additive or coolant contamination from a leaking headgasket/head. Virgin oil analysis says my current oil (Total INEO Quartz MC3) does not have any sodium additives. My used oil sample had sodium, so it either came from the Valvoline synthetic used 2 changes ago or from coolant contamination. Blackstone said in their experience, Valvoline SYNpower oils contain sodium additives but Penzoil Platinum does not.

If 10% of old oil doesn't drain, my oil sample was 90% Total Quartz, 9% Penzoil, and 1% Valvoline. If 20% of old oil remains per change, my oil was 4% Valvoline. The question is did the sodium in my used oil sample come from the Valvoline 2 changes ago or from coolant?

My Blackstone UOAs seem to indicate about 15% of my oil remains when I change the oil.
I base this on the moly readings when I changed from BMW 5w-30 to Castrol Syntec 0w-30 that did not have any moly.
The Castrol UOA would have about 15% of the moly from the last BMW 5w-30 UOA.
They are all posted over at BITOG with the same user name if you want to take a look.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2431085

[LivesNearCostco]

Oooh, good data Shanneba. So when I sent my sample, my oil was probably 2.25% Valvoline (15% of 15%). I'm tempted to buy their $30 transfer pump so I can pull a sample out of the dipstick tube now and check the sodium content, instead of waiting for 5,000 miles to go by.

[danewilson77]

Bump?

[LivesNearCostco]

I did buy the sampling pump and the sodium content in my UOA did fall with the next sample. Took a sample in March 2013 but it was only 500 miles after oil change. Just sent in new oil sample and will post results when I get them.

[LivesNearCostco]

Blackstone UOA report with 5700 miles and 6 track days (plus 3 or 4 AutoX events) on the oil. Using Lubro Molly MoS2 seems to have cut lead wear significantly but made little or no difference with iron, copper, and aluminum levels. And nikel is higher. Not sure if that's from the Lubro Molly, because of the Lubro Molly, or in spite of it. I think this oil has more track days than the last sample did and that could be the cause of the

Good news is sodium continues to fall, suggesting I do not have a headgasket coolant leak and that the sodium shown earlier probably was from the oil itself. Sodium is higher than the last sample of this same oil, but could be from adding the Lubro Molly.
9712

[terraphantm]

http://i.imgur.com/jAvkGS4.jpg

Between having elevated oil temps as of late and high lead... I think I should assume my bearings are on their way out. Wish I did an earlier test

[danewilson77]

http://i.imgur.com/jAvkGS4.jpg

Between having elevated oil temps as of late and high lead... I think I should assume my bearings are on their way out. Wish I did an earlier test

I would say a rising trend would confirm your belief. Pull another sample next change so we can connect the dots.

Sent from my HTC6435LVW using Tapatalk 2

[terraphantm]

I would say a rising trend would confirm your belief. Pull another sample next change so we can connect the dots.

Sent from my HTC6435LVW using Tapatalk 2

Yeah I'll probably do that. Any elevated lead is enough to get me nervous because of the S54's history... but if it is bearing wear, it's probably not too far done yet since copper isn't elevated

[M0nk3y]

Yeah I'll probably do that. Any elevated lead is enough to get me nervous because of the S54's history... but if it is bearing wear, it's probably not too far done yet since copper isn't elevated

What oil temps are you running at normal driving?

I sit at 200F all day everyday

http://imageshack.us/a/img109/9648/de3i.png

[terraphantm]

Normally I run 190-200. For the last couple thousand miles before changing my oil, it was hitting 220ish. Some of that is expected due to the summer heat, but even on the cooler days it seemed to be running hot.

Since changing the oil it has cooled back down to about 200. Still warmer than what I was used to, but I'll keep an eye on it

Your engine is pretty young, so even if it has lived a pretty hard life, I wouldn't be too worried. At 113k, I'm at the right time for my bearings to fail. I will do these eventually -- just don't have as much time as I'd like at the moment. I wonder if I should go with coated or not...

[LivesNearCostco]

My last Blackstone report from March 2014 with 185,000 miles.
13241

[ELCID86]

^good report.


Thumbs, iPhone, Tapatalk.

[LivesNearCostco]

Thanks. I see aluminum and lead seem to be lower than before, while iron and nickel were higher than previous reports. The boron went up, possibly it's because I changed from one Total oil (Elf 5w-30) to another (Quartz Energy 9000 5w-40). Moly went down because I stopped using the Lubro Molly MoS2 additive.

[llll1l1ll]

This was my report. BMW 5-30 synthetic. 7,500 miles since change. Perhaps the viscosity is high because I use a power extractor every other change?

[danewilson77]

Perhaps the viscosity is high because I use a power extractor every other change?

I don't think so.

Samsung Galaxy S5...

[llll1l1ll]

Roger that. I guess I'll find out if it's a trend when I do it next time around!

[danewilson77]

The only reason I said that is because the power extractor leaves less than 0.25 qts behind on an oil change, and I really don't think that's enough to effect viscosity.

[M0nk3y]

Latest report. All is well, but still scratching my head at the first report:

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g135/1nFeCt1oN/Oilreport14_zps96e06e74.png

[ELCID86]

Interesting read here: http://blackstone-labs.us1.list-manage2.com/track/click?u=f641390cba42169db49e0cd6e&id=b4a4f3aa7d&e=865c9c36e5

We hereby grant you oil freedom for the rest of your days! :biggrin

[ryankokesh]

Interesting read here: http://blackstone-labs.us1.list-manage2.com/track/click?u=f641390cba42169db49e0cd6e&id=b4a4f3aa7d&e=865c9c36e5

We hereby grant you oil freedom for the rest of your days! :biggrin

Interesting!


Sent from my iPhone

[NorCalZman]

Very. Having said that, I haven't really "worried" much about it anyway and it's easy enough for me to stick with BMW oil or BMW spec'd oil. I'll keep doing it. Total Quartz is in the engine right now and a quart of BMW oil is Velcro'd to the side of the trunk.

[Avetiso]

Interesting read here: http://blackstone-labs.us1.list-manage2.com/track/click?u=f641390cba42169db49e0cd6e&id=b4a4f3aa7d&e=865c9c36e5

We hereby grant you oil freedom for the rest of your days! :biggrin

Really, Shawn? Logic? That's not what the enthusiast community is looking for! Let us fight each other and insult each other on the basis of anecdotal evidence without any actual proof. :rofl

I suppose that resonates more on E46F... Heh.

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk

[ryankokesh]

Really, Shawn? Logic? That's not what the enthusiast community is looking for! Let us fight each other and insult each other on the basis of anecdotal evidence without any actual proof. :rofl

I suppose that resonates more on E46F... Heh.

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk

Oh no need to fight...just remember that I'm always right :thumbsup


Sent from my iPhone

[ELCID86]

Really, Shawn? Logic? That's not what the enthusiast community is looking for! Let us fight each other and insult each other on the basis of anecdotal evidence without any actual proof. :rofl

I suppose that resonates more on E46F... Heh.

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk
yep. Charlie and I had a long talk with the Lubro Moly guy at the shop day here a few weeks back. He certainly would not agree with this!

[Dave1027]

Interesting read here: http://blackstone-labs.us1.list-manage2.com/track/click?u=f641390cba42169db49e0cd6e&id=b4a4f3aa7d&e=865c9c36e5

We hereby grant you oil freedom for the rest of your days! :biggrin

This guy is claiming that Castrol GTX (dino) is as good as the top tier synthetics? Maybe for 5k mile OCI. Even then I doubt it.

[ELCID86]

This guy is claiming that Castrol GTX (dino) is as good as the top tier synthetics? Maybe for 5k mile OCI. Even then I doubt it.

"This guy" is Blackstone Labs.


Thumbs, iPhone, Tapatalk.

[derbo]

My report just came in,

132k. 2584 miles on the odo, 2 track events and 6month period.

20210