Help From My Mafia Brothers

[kayger12]

Ok gents. I've been looking at winter tire/wheel packages and am having a real problem spending $1,000+ on another set of tires when I could be putting that money towards other mods.

So what would the opinion of the familia be? Play it safe, or further develop my car control skills by running UHP Summers in the winter?

[Mtnman]

i had/have Michelin pilot sport all season plus's on my car. We had massive snow in asheville last year. they did great as long as it was 4 inches or less. honestly, above that the ZHP turns into a plow anyway. Im sure it would be better with dedicated winter tires, but i was really impressed with how well the car did. Everything i read said the zhp was terrible in the snow. it was the first winter for me and the zhp, and it did as well or better than the front wheel drive 2007 accord did. i just left the traction control on, and she went along great. just my 2 cents.
David

oh, and i forgot to say, they performed great all seasons. summer was great grip and low highway noise. I just switched to continental extreme contact DWS, as the mich's are done on the rears. I hope they do as well. so far, they do well in 2-3 inches, which is all we have had this year.

[danewilson77]

Mod away....and just drive slower in the winter....

[Mike V]

You should be able to find a reasonably priced used set. I paid $400 for a nice set of wheels and tires with plenty tread left.

[Marcus-SanDiego]

I'm just too conservative. I voted for tires. I lived in some serious snow in the past. Treacherous conditions at times.

[az3579]

If you ever have to ask whether to spend money on safety or mods, ALWAYS choose safety. The money on mods you spend won't matter if you're sliding and crashing into something. :shifty
I'm surprised you're even asking. Driving in the winter on summer tires is downright dangerous, not only to you, but to others. To run summer tires with cold temperatures and/or snow on the ground is downright irresponsible.

Please choose safety over mods. Mods can wait; safety cannot.

[pyreguy]

I vote mods. But mainly its really hard for me to imagine needing an extra set of tires. It snows here like once every several years so I can't wrap my mind around it. Mods, now that's something I get.

You could buy cheaper winter tires, use the rest on goodies and call them all mods!


but yeah, you should do the safer thing...:eeps

[kayger12]

If you ever have to ask whether to spend money on safety or mods, ALWAYS choose safety. The money on mods you spend won't matter if you're sliding and crashing into something. :shifty
I'm surprised you're even asking. Driving in the winter on summer tires is downright dangerous, not only to you, but to others. To run summer tires with cold temperatures and/or snow on the ground is downright irresponsible.

Please choose safety over mods. Mods can wait; safety cannot.

You know, Botond, one of the things that I really appreciate about you is your straight-to-the-point, I-don't-beat-around-the-bush approach to posts :)

All my vehicles up until my 325 had A/S on them. The 325 had summers on them and when I got to the first winter, I did some research and got the usual mixed results: One group saying basically what you're saying-- it's really dangerous-- and one group saying, yeah- the traction is reduced but it's not like you're driving on a skating rink (provided you don't drive in the snow).

So I drove on them when the temps dropped to see how they were. There was less traction, so I adjusted my driving accordingly-- the same as I would do if I were driving in the rain, snow, or any other condition that affects vehicle dynamics.

At no time were the tires so lacking in traction that the car was difficult or challenging to control. Less traction, yes, but sufficient traction to safely operate the vehicle.

I'm not saying that this is true of all summer tires, but in the case of the Ventus v12s, they were not bad or even marginal. They were fine.

So that's why I was asking. To see what the opinions were with respect to just how necessary winter tires really are, and if people have experienced anything to make them believe that it is truly dangerous to operate in low temps on summers.

If it's truly a danger/safety issue, then I would/will not drive on them. I'm the last one you need to worry about taking my own or other people's safety lightly, or who needs a speech on the importance of safety-- I've dealt with enough mangled cars (and bodies for that matter) to know that I don't want to take unnecessary risks... which is why I appreciate your strong opinion on the topic.

[az3579]

I understand the fact that the car can still be driven in the snow, but the second you go to make an evasive maneuver or try to stop quickly, you'll be regretting your decision for the rest of your ownership and potentially your life. That is literally like riding a motorcycle; you can in theory ride your entire life without crashing, but all it takes is one little slip up and you could be paying for it be it materially or with your life.
It just isn't worth the risk, regardless of how in control you may feel. That $500 or so worth of snow tires is the difference between potentially evading an accident or a sum much higher than that in repair bills.

I'm just trying to look out for you Keith. I'm glad you understand and still do not believe there is a choice here.

[kayger12]

I understand the fact that the car can still be driven in the snow, but the second you go to make an evasive maneuver or try to stop quickly, you'll be regretting your decision for the rest of your ownership and potentially your life. That is literally like riding a motorcycle; you can in theory ride your entire life without crashing, but all it takes is one little slip up and you could be paying for it be it materially or with your life.
It just isn't worth the risk, regardless of how in control you may feel. That $500 or so worth of snow tires is the difference between potentially evading an accident or a sum much higher than that in repair bills.

I'm just trying to look out for you Keith. I'm glad you understand and still do not believe there is a choice here.

Gotcha, bro. I appreciate it.

[kayger12]

I'm just too conservative. I voted for tires. I lived in some serious snow in the past. Treacherous conditions at times.

No such thing as too conservative in my book, Marcus. Like I related to Botond, more just a matter for me of trying to figure out if it really is a legitimate and factual safety concern.

I've survived a lot of hairy situations in both my career and my flying days by always aspiring to be what some might consider too conservative.

A trait to be encouraged, to be sure.

[danewilson77]

I tell you what. I am not buying a winter setup for the one or two storms we have here that really would warrant it. And winter/All season tires do not help you stop....

Best safety tip is to stay far behind the jackass in front of you and drive a bit more cautiously. You will never replace good driving technique with tires.

[mimalmo]

There's a big difference in traction and usable operating temps between UHP Summers and All Seasons. I've driven my car with Dunlop SP Sport Maxx's on a cold fall morning where we got a dusting of snow. Traction was almost non-existant.

[nk_zhp]

Summer tires in snow = stupid. I am not trying to be offensive. It's just a no brainier. BTW there are plenty of used sets on the market if you don't want to spend a 1K.

[kayger12]

I tell you what. I am not buying a winter setup for the one or two storms we have here that really would warrant it. And winter/All season tires do not help you stop....

Best safety tip is to stay far behind the jackass in front of you and drive a bit more cautiously. You will never replace good driving technique with tires.

I agree. I don't intend on taking the car out in the snow regardless of the tires anyway.

Just wondering if the dry traction is poor on the Potenzas when the temp gets down low.

[danewilson77]

Summer tires in snow = stupid. I am not trying to be offensive. It's just a no brainier. BTW there are plenty of used sets on the market if you don't want to spend a 1K.

^Thank you. The next time it snows...I'll just bolt on the extra set I have out in the garage.

[Rayzah Blade]

I tell you what. I am not buying a winter setup for the one or two storms we have here that really would warrant it. And winter/All season tires do not help you stop....

Best safety tip is to stay far behind the jackass in front of you and drive a bit more cautiously. You will never replace good driving technique with tires.

I gotta slightly disagree with you here, for the best driver in the world isn't squat without the right rubber under him.
As a man who has spent almost 11 years driving in new englands nastiest weather thrown at us, nothing beats a set of good winter tires. I know the snowfall in jersey isn't as quite as much as some of the northern states, you still see a good amount of snow/slush/ice. IMHO, those from the warmer climates that say 'mods' don't deal with this problem every winter, and therefore have no idea of how important it is to run a different set of tires in relation to the season. The softer and deeper treads on winter tires give an additional amount of 'stickyness' to help traction in the ickiest of situations.
I ran all seasons on an old suburu I had, and even with the real time AWD, traction was iffy at best in the snow. Don't get me wrong, the suby held her own, but the next winter I bought some dedicated winter tires/steelies, and the difference was like night and day.
The best part of winter's is since you only need to run them for a couple/few months out of the year, you can hold onto to them for a while. My last set of winter tires lasted me 4 seasons, while passing inspection with them with no problems.

[nk_zhp]

And winter/All season tires do not help you stop....

They ABSOLUTELY help you stop.

[Pooters]

From what I understand, the gains from 1k worth of investment is very minimal for a ZHP. So just bank the money and be a man. You're 4k away from having a good blower kit for your car ;)

[zhp43867]

I tell you what. I am not buying a winter setup for the one or two storms we have here that really would warrant it. And winter/All season tires do not help you stop....

Best safety tip is to stay far behind the jackass in front of you and drive a bit more cautiously. You will never replace good driving technique with tires.

I'd actually say you can never replace good winter tires with driving technique. Not trying to instigate and argument, just sayin'...


I gotta slightly disagree with you here, for the best driver in the world isn't squat without the right rubber under him.
As a man who has spent almost 11 years driving in new englands nastiest weather thrown at us, nothing beats a set of good winter tires. I know the snowfall in jersey isn't as quite as much as some of the northern states, you still see a good amount of snow/slush/ice. IMHO, those from the warmer climates that say 'mods' don't deal with this problem every winter, and therefore have no idea of how important it is to run a different set of tires in relation to the season. The softer and deeper treads on winter tires give an additional amount of 'stickyness' to help traction in the ickiest of situations.
I ran all seasons on an old suburu I had, and even with the real time AWD, traction was iffy at best in the snow. Don't get me wrong, the suby held her own, but the next winter I bought some dedicated winter tires/steelies, and the difference was like night and day.
The best part of winter's is since you only need to run them for a couple/few months out of the year, you can hold onto to them for a while. My last set of winter tires lasted me 4 seasons, while passing inspection with them with no problems.

+1


They ABSOLUTELY help you stop.

+1 Dane I think you are confusing 4wd/awd in this case with tires. All seasons/winter tires make a huge difference in stopping, 4wd does not help you stop any better than 2wd.

OP, I have thought about using all seasons all year, but it isn't worth it. The amount of damage you could cause is far greater than a good set of snow tires cost.

It's $556 for a new set of four Dunlop WinterSport M3s in 225/47/17 on TireRack; pick up a set of used style 44s or 68s for $250 and you're golden.

[nk_zhp]

If where you reside you get literally one or two days of snow a year, and it's pretty much cleaned out the next day then yes it is hard to justify the cost. But anyone who is systematically subjected to snow fall in the winter should in my opinion have them. While we are on the subject might as well add technical value to this discussion. Years back my instructor at Skip Barber told me how snow tires work and it wasn't immediately apparent to me before that. Snow packs very well to snow, the whole point of snow tires is to trap snow inside the tiny micro-groves that you see on the rubber blocks, this trapped snow packs to the snow on the ground and creates excellent traction. The real reason why Z-rated tires suck in snow has not as much to do with the rubber compounded getting too cold in the snow as much as it has to do with lack of those micro-groves that trap snow.

[Marcus-SanDiego]

We ran Blizzak LM25 tires. They were great. One winter we ran studded snow tires. It's just difficult to imagine running anything other than snows during the winter.

[az3579]

lmao

Keith, you never mentioned that you weren't planning on taking the car out in the snow... :rolleyes
In that case, I think all-seasons would suit you a lot better. They're "OK" in the snow in the very unlikely case you'll encounter it while driving your car, all-the-while they'll be able to handle the cold temperatures for when you want to take it out while being cold but with no snow on the ground.

Either way, you would have to get a new set of tires. You could actually damage your summers if you continue to run them in the cold, and summer tires are more expensive than all-seasons (last I checked).

[kayger12]

lmao

Keith, you never mentioned that you weren't planning on taking the car out in the snow... :rolleyes


Lol- yeah, I guess it would have been helpful if I made that clear earlier. My bad.

I'm on the coast in the southern part of Jersey, so most winters we have 1 or 2 days when there is snow on the ground. Last winter was an exception and we got hammered, but that just meant that the 325 spent a lot of time in the garage. If I'm going somewhere out of state in the winter, I check the weather forecast for snow. If there's any forecast, even a dusting, I take the Mazda (4wd with Michelin cross terrains- which are outstanding in the snow fwiw).

Good advice in these posts. Not sure exactly which direction I'm going with this yet. Gonna do some research on all seasons and go from there.

Thanks for the feedback, gents.

[Marcus-SanDiego]

Just stay safe out there, Keith.

[Jon D]

I'm with the safety thing as well. I would look for a used set of wheels possibly with tires. After all they don't have to be as good as the summer set and you'll probably better off with 17s or 16s anyway so those potholes don't do as much damage..

[bimmer848]

just ordered snows 10 min. ago for the oem wheels! i'm still on the 19's as i too have a back up car, but they loose traction just diving down the street! snows ftw!

[mimalmo]

I'm with the safety thing as well. I would look for a used set of wheels possibly with tires. After all they don't have to be as good as the summer set and you'll probably better off with 17s or 16s anyway so those potholes don't do as much damage..


Just as an FYI the overwhelming majority of 16" wheels don't fit our cars due to brake clearance. I think Tire Rack only stocks one 16" wheel that does. Can't remember the model though. An affordable way to do this is look for some used 17" OEM wheels that are non-staggered (so you can rotate them) and mount snow tires on them.

[Marcus-SanDiego]

Just as an FYI the overwhelming majority of 16" wheels don't fit our cars due to brake clearance. I think Tire Rack only stocks one 16" wheel that does. Can't remember the model though. An affordable way to do this is look for some used 17" OEM wheels that are non-staggered (so you can rotate them) and mount snow tires on them.

Square snow setup FTW!

[Rayzah Blade]

Square snow setup on the xi FTW!
fixed :)

I feel like I'm the only one who bought my e46 as my primary winter car? I love the fact it's all wheel drive, and love it's daily drive-ability. Plus it's got butt warmers, and plows thru snow like a kubota!!!

[Kudos]

Please find out the 16's that will fit, i've been looking for a while, and we already have snow here and i just don't want to damage my summer tires and wheels. I haven't had an issue with traction too much, and here in chicago, we get ice and freezing temps. The solution I used to do is just increase weight in the back to give it enough traction to move. That and start in 2nd or even 3rd gear.

[danewilson77]

Also consider deflating tires a lil bit. You know...run them low in the band....

[3ZHPGUY]

I browsed through most of this thread and never found what tires you are running. There are many different choices some of them M/S or all season that may work. Now if you're into performance tires like myself, I know the won't work well in snow. The Bridgestone's I run for the summer are not recommended for temps under 42. Check out the tread pattern below, it's obvious why I run snows. Currently I'm in the last season on Michelin Pilots, next year will be Bridgestone Blizzak's. It's not about getting stuck, but staying straight on the road. When you're doing 360s on the snowy highway, you'll know you made the wrong decision it you chose to go for the performance stuff.

http://i591.photobucket.com/albums/ss351/3zhpguy/ZHP/IMG_3733_2.jpg

[Mike V]

I finally quit procrastinating with the winter wheel swap. I'm pleased with how nice these wheels look. They are 17 x 8 Rial, ET30 with 225/45 Dunlop 3D winters.

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g105/mjvm3/ZHPWinter.jpg

[mimalmo]

Those look good and should easily cut through the snow and slush.

[nk_zhp]

Mike, that is EXACTLY my setup. Looks great. I like that setup so much that was thinking of using the same rims with nice high end summer tires (flame suit is on... yeah yeah stock rims are great...)

[Mike V]

Mike, that is EXACTLY my setup. Looks great. I like that setup so much that was thinking of using the same rims with nice high end summer tires (flame suit is on... yeah yeah stock rims are great...)

Ha! What are the odds of that?

I run 17 x 8.5 / 17 x 9 SSR Comps (235/45 and 255/40) for the non-winter months. The wheels need to be refinished though. :(

[nk_zhp]

SSR Comps are a nice lightweight setup.

[danewilson77]

Lookin good Mike...

[DESANT]

I always had a dedicated winter and summer tires, last year I bought all season tires for Audi, spent close to $1.2K, they were bad on snow, no good on wet and ok on dry. I vote for dedicated winter tires, to save some $ I would buy slightly used tires.

[kayger12]

I browsed through most of this thread and never found what tires you are running. There are many different choices some of them M/S or all season that may work. Now if you're into performance tires like myself, I know the won't work well in snow. The Bridgestone's I run for the summer are not recommended for temps under 42. Check out the tread pattern below, it's obvious why I run snows. Currently I'm in the last season on Michelin Pilots, next year will be Bridgestone Blizzak's. It's not about getting stuck, but staying straight on the road. When you're doing 360s on the snowy highway, you'll know you made the wrong decision it you chose to go for the performance stuff.

http://i591.photobucket.com/albums/ss351/3zhpguy/ZHP/IMG_3733_2.jpg

Sorry- just caught this post. Running Bstone Potenza 040s

[3ZHPGUY]

RE11s,

Nice job Mike V, you won't be doing 360s with those.

[az3579]

I finally quit procrastinating with the winter wheel swap. I'm pleased with how nice these wheels look. They are 17 x 8 Rial, ET30 with 225/45 Dunlop 3D winters.

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g105/mjvm3/ZHPWinter.jpg

It's too bad the offset is so low on those. I'm lowered to the point where my Kosei K1's with a 40mm offset (17x7.5) rub badly in the back if I hit a moderate bump... :(
They do look darned good. Similar to OEMs, actually.