Is German Engineering Really Better?

[Fender215]

Guys,

I'm going to throw this out there fully knowing/expecting that it may cause fireworks (or to get no views at all haha) - partly because I fancy a rant but more because I honestly want to hear what others think.

I've always read/heard talk of German reliability being better (or the best) - whether it's from the average guy talking about cars or enthusiasts/other forums. Am I the only one who thinks that is a load of crap? Where does this reliability talk come from? Is it anywhere near true today?

For full disclosure - I love cars and racing but am no way near even being an amateur mechanic - although I would love to do all my own work. Honestly, even if I knew how to I'm not sure I don't want to spend my weekend working on a car vs. driving it (or doing whatever else I want to do). I know that may sound bad, but that's just me. I'm just the average car lover (I don't consider myself a BMW lover) who wonders why German cars appear to be so "finnicky" versus Japanese cars (or now even Korean). I'd also take a Ferrari in a heatbeat no matter how much maintenance it needs!

Anyway, I've had my ZHP for about 1.5yrs so far and absolutely LOVE it and it's actually changed the way I think about all cars. My wife has a 2010 MB. (Note this post isn't coming from any issues I've had with either of those cars - just from what I always read/hear). I also have a '01 Civic which has been my trusty companion since new, taken everything that has been thrown at it (including NYC roads for the last 6 years), and regularly functioned as my old band's "tour van" or even a bloody pickup truck on those Home Depot/Lowes trips.

Which car do I never ever have to even think about, let alone "worry" about, reliability? The Honda.

Every manufacturer has their share of issues (Toyota recalls etc), but overall I strongly believe the Japanese have way more reliable cars. I've never liked some of the arguments I've heard that BMW (or insert other German marque) engineer cars to XYZ or whatever because why can't you design a car that drives well and is reliable? I'm guessing the Toyota/Scion/Subaru BRZ won't have too many issues but sounds like a blast to drive. I understand that the Acura NSX was great and reliable as well.

I also cringe at the ultimate driving machine banter that gets associated with this. Why? Is our ZHP an ultimate driving machine? I'm sure we all agree yes. Are many BMW's? Yes, quite likely, but certainly not all and I won't even start on what I think of any new one I've driven.

All that being said, why the hell should there be so much (what I think of but again I'm not even an amateur mechanic) bull Sh*t maintenance or other issues with the car? I had to research/study the crap out of E46 related issues before I pulled the trigger and just like i did all through college - I crammed, passed, and now have mostly forgotten! I did all that because after 2min behind the wheel of a ZHP (that I totally stumbled upon) - that was it - it was the ZHP and only the ZHP that I wanted.

Take another example, my dad's '01 Lexus LS with well over 100K mi. Absolutely brilliant car, luxurious as hell, and all it needs is a regular oil change at literally any mechanic for less than $40. It's had some very minor maintenance here and there but runs like new. His old one was a '95 with ~150k and just needed tires and oil, period. (Again, this isn't about whether a lexus drives like a bmw - that's just two totally different takes on driving dynamics)

I personally know 4 people who have had BMW's with engines that caught on fire (2), other total engine failure, and a transmission pack up before 100k mi. I have heard loads of other stories as well. These aren't idiots either, they all like their cars and treat them well.

Lastly, I've never had to worry about a stupid window regulator, window pillars that peel, center console plastic that eventually looks like some cheap toy from the 80s if you're not super careful or countless other build quality vs. reliability issues on my other cars. In the end, I'm ok/will deal with it because again, I just love the way ZHP drives. In no way does that mean I shouldn't wonder why? If this was my $40k+ car when new, I'd be well annoyed.

Anyway, enough of my rant - hopefully I didn't anger anyone because that's not my intent. Maybe this is just one of those agree to disagree things. I'm the type of person that gets annoyed when someone scratches my already beat up (through no fault of my own) Honda.

To put it a completely different way, I'm not the type of person who gets the point in wearing a Rolex watch that costs thousands just to have to repair it for a stupidly large sum when it stops working every few years. I'll just wear a "good" brand that only costs a couple hundred dollars, tells me the time (or better yet just look at my phone) and buy 10-20 of them over my life instead!

[gmurphy]

Interesting points. All I'm going to say is that you have to pay to play.


Sent from a Secret Location (Lincoln,NE exit 395 on I-80)

[kayger12]

I've never heard anyone say that German reliability is the best. Engineering for performance/handling and engineering for reliability are two completely different things.

People who want maintenance-free ownership will typically buy Japanese label as they do have a reputation for great reliability. That being said, if a Honda Civic was my weekend fun vehicle I'd be looking for a tall building from which to leap.

People who want a driving experience will typically by European which has a reputation for great driveability and performance (generally).

As a general rule, better reliability equals a more vanilla driving experience and better performance/handling requires more maintenance. This is true whether you're dealing with automobiles, motorcycles, aircraft, or watercraft.

If I needed a long-term reliable commuter that required little maintenance, I'd buy a Honda.

If I want to have a great driving experience I drive something that is engineered to drive/handle better than the average car and accept the increased maintenance as a given.

If you're looking for great reliability with little maintenance BMW shouldn't be on your list. The reality is that driving an E46 these days means you either 1) will need to learn to DIY; or 2) you'll be shelling out lots of money to maintain your vehicle.

[TigerTater]

Hmmm. Interesting post. Not sure why you would come in to a zhp forum and flame the car lol. But you have cojones. We typically don't get into such banter here on the Mafia. We all love our cars and knew (mostly) what we signed up for. I agree that many Japanese cars are maybe more reliable than other brands, but I've seen many bmws with hundreds of thousands of miles still on the road with civics stranded nearby. I think many people here "maintain" preventively so as not to be stranded, I also think we push our cars more than average consumers. Forums are such a small sliver of the overall owning population of a brand, it's not well represented. The reliability is likely much more reputable that one may realize when you venture out of forum world where people go to usually troubleshoot issues. Just my 2¢


Sent from my iPhone 13

[Pip]

Lots of people drive German cars reliably over time and sell them as junk later. There is a difference...you're on a forum. The mindset here is that you're an enthusiast and want a performance vehicle so if the bushings or suspension go out on the performance car you notice and replace. If the suspension or bushings go out on a civic you probably notice but don't give a shot because it is just supposed to get from point a to point b and not drive like a performance vehicle. You don't have to replace fluids etc in the BMW, but most likely do because you're an enthusiast or care more about the German car than the other car.

[gmurphy]

Lots of people drive German cars reliably over time and sell them as junk later. There is a difference...you're on a forum. The mindset here is that you're an enthusiast and want a performance vehicle so if the bushings or suspension go out on the performance car you notice and replace. If the suspension or bushings go out on a civic you probably notice but don't give a shot because it is just supposed to get from point a to point b and not drive like a performance vehicle. You don't have to replace fluids etc in the BMW, but most likely do because you're an enthusiast or care more about the German car than the other car.

+1
If these cars are taken care of they are as reliable as you want them to be. I am at 123,000 miles because of this. If you buy a car and do nothing but oil changes (IE. A civic) then you probably won't notice when things start breaking. On the inside for example, you will notice little things right away on a BMW that may be 100 times worse on your other car but since the other car is just a way to get around you won't care.


Sent from a Secret Location (Lincoln,NE exit 395 on I-80)

[mbeckel]

I've never heard anyone say that German reliability is the best. Engineering for performance/handling and engineering for reliability are two completely different things.

People who want maintenance-free ownership will typically buy Japanese label as they do have a reputation for great reliability. That being said, if a Honda Civic was my weekend fun vehicle I'd be looking for a tall building from which to leap.

People who want a driving experience will typically by European which has a reputation for great driveability and performance (generally).

As a general rule, better reliability equals a more vanilla driving experience and better performance/handling requires more maintenance. This is true whether you're dealing with automobiles, motorcycles, aircraft, or watercraft.

If I needed a long-term reliable commuter that required little maintenance, I'd buy a Honda.

If I want to have a great driving experience I drive something that is engineered to drive/handle better than the average car and accept the increased maintenance as a given.

If you're looking for great reliability with little maintenance BMW shouldn't be on your list. The reality is that driving an E46 these days means you either 1) will need to learn to DIY; or 2) you'll be shelling out lots of money to maintain your vehicle.

Very nicely put, I have my zhp for my fun car and a civic for my dd. The civic requires a lot less attention to detail because of its engineering, I have done way more work (probably a 4 to 1 ratio) on my zhp because it requires it. And it's simply because the bmw has far superior quality and performance

Sent from in the bushes

[johnrando]

I've never heard anyone say that German reliability is the best. Engineering for performance/handling and engineering for reliability are two completely different things.

People who want maintenance-free ownership will typically buy Japanese label as they do have a reputation for great reliability. That being said, if a Honda Civic was my weekend fun vehicle I'd be looking for a tall building from which to leap.

People who want a driving experience will typically by European which has a reputation for great driveability and performance (generally).

As a general rule, better reliability equals a more vanilla driving experience and better performance/handling requires more maintenance. This is true whether you're dealing with automobiles, motorcycles, aircraft, or watercraft.

If I needed a long-term reliable commuter that required little maintenance, I'd buy a Honda.

If I want to have a great driving experience I drive something that is engineered to drive/handle better than the average car and accept the increased maintenance as a given.

If you're looking for great reliability with little maintenance BMW shouldn't be on your list. The reality is that driving an E46 these days means you either 1) will need to learn to DIY; or 2) you'll be shelling out lots of money to maintain your vehicle.

Definitely well said. Certainly part of that reputation came from how well the overall car was built too. Past BMWs and Mercedes, while leading the CAR technology charge, did not have many of the creature comforts. They were solidly built, sparse cars, there to perform a function. Less bells and whistles, less things to break, more focus on the car/driver. While other manufacturers have caught up wit that (and German cars caught up on the bells and whistles), try taking an 80s or earlier American or Japanese car, and closing the door. Then try a German car. Big difference in how solidly they are built. That reputation has carried forward.

PS Nothing wrong with asking that question BTW. Good discussion.

[Fender215]

Well this blows. I wrote a whole response to this and then accidentally closed my browser!

All of us here get it, we own the car, love the car, and we "accept" the stuff that goes along with it. My point wasn't about this car in particular (or even just cars) and was actually to question why the hell should I accept that "you have to pay to play" in general?

I'll bring it back to cars for another example, i'll pick on BMW again. I was in my managers X5 a few months ago, we went to check the oil and realized that you have to do it through the stupid menu system. 5, 10, 15 minutes go by and it refuses to give a reading. We gave up, he didn't care because the car is leased. Why'd you over-engineer something so bloody simple when there was no need to?

Another example...and gets us away from German vs. Japanese and just onto the question of What is Good Reliability/Engineering? Take the Tesla Model S (love that car too, I think it's fantastic) but why did you decide that pop out door handles were a good idea? I don't care that it made the car X% more aerodynamic, or that it looks cool. Fact is, if I owned one, I would just wonder when it will stop working and then prevent me from getting into the car.

I'll shutup now.

[Fender215]

Actually I won't shuttup haha - because I saw a few new posts.

To the point "I have done way more work (probably a 4 to 1 ratio) on my zhp because it requires it. And it's simply because the bmw has far superior quality and performance"

I think through this I'm refining my original question completely to ask: WHAT IS GOOD/SUPERIOR QUALITY?

I actually don't consider that to be good quality. If it was good quality, it wouldn't have needed that in the first place. I'd actually consider my dd Civic better quality (yes, seriously!) I'm questioning our entire attitude to things.

You guys can now probably tell I have way too black/white view of things. There is no gray.