Is German Engineering Really Better?

[RITmusic2k]

Well said, prowler!

[az3579]

I've never had a problem with our Fords. 275k on one SUV and 180k on a Taurus. They are far more reliable than our BMWs that's for sure.

"Arnold smoking a cigar in the Red Square; your argument is invalid." -Galaxy S5

Yes it is: over the years I've owned 31 different cars and trucks and worked on all of them and more. That included 11 Fords, 6 Chevy's, 4 Pontiac's, 4 BMW's, 2 Toyota's 2 Datsun's and 1 Chrysler that I never paid for. With all these and turning wrench for a living for ten plus years, I can honestly sat they are engineered better. Our cars are very complex and sometimes a real PITA to get things apart but, it comes apart and rarely needs persuasion with a BFH. And, it all goes back together in the same form as it was removed. When it complete it is as good or better than new. I can't say that about any other brand I've ever worked on. Yeh, issues and problems on other brands can be fixed but, they are never as good as new.


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What Steve (prowlerflyer) said is spot on: there is a difference between reliability and engineering.

Since the subject of the thread is engineering, I can safely say that Ford doesn't put nearly as much engineering into their cars as BMW does. The amount of painstaking work that goes into something as simple as that stupid iDrive gong that was in the E9x generation of cars with iDrive is mind blowing. Ford would've just said "yeah, that sounds good" and left it, while BMW actually spent lots of time coming up with the sound they thought would sound the best. While I don't agree that they should've spent all that time on the gong, it still shows, and is way nicer than any American product. This is just one example; there are countless other areas on the cars that BMW spends tons of time engineering, some of which is overkill, but is still noticeable.

Reliability is an entirely different story.

[Avetiso]

What Steve (prowlerflyer) said is spot on: there is a difference between reliability and engineering.

Since the subject of the thread is engineering, I can safely say that Ford doesn't put nearly as much engineering into their cars as BMW does.

Agreed. For sure.

But I still think the "Found on road dead" is a myth.

"Arnold smoking a cigar in the Red Square; your argument is invalid." -Galaxy S5

[az3579]

I've never had a problem with our Fords. 275k on one SUV and 180k on a Taurus. They are far more reliable than our BMWs that's for sure.

"Arnold smoking a cigar in the Red Square; your argument is invalid." -Galaxy S5

Yes it is: over the years I've owned 31 different cars and trucks and worked on all of them and more. That included 11 Fords, 6 Chevy's, 4 Pontiac's, 4 BMW's, 2 Toyota's 2 Datsun's and 1 Chrysler that I never paid for. With all these and turning wrench for a living for ten plus years, I can honestly sat they are engineered better. Our cars are very complex and sometimes a real PITA to get things apart but, it comes apart and rarely needs persuasion with a BFH. And, it all goes back together in the same form as it was removed. When it complete it is as good or better than new. I can't say that about any other brand I've ever worked on. Yeh, issues and problems on other brands can be fixed but, they are never as good as new.


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Agreed. For sure.

But I still think the "Found on road dead" is a myth.

"Arnold smoking a cigar in the Red Square; your argument is invalid." -Galaxy S5

Maybe there was truth to it with some older models but today's Fords are rock solid cars, and the amount of quality in them and "engineering" in that regard have gone up significantly as well. I love the amount of work that was put into the next gen Ford F150. I highly respect Ford now, whereas I had no respect for them 5 years ago.

[johnrando]

Maybe there was truth to it with some older models but today's Fords are rock solid cars, and the amount of quality in them and "engineering" in that regard have gone up significantly as well. I love the amount of work that was put into the next gen Ford F150. I highly respect Ford now, whereas I had no respect for them 5 years ago.

You should have seen the crap they put out in the late '70s and '80s.

[az3579]

You should have seen the crap they put out in the late '70s and '80s.

Precisely why I never had respect for them back then, because I knew that their existing lineup at the time and in the past were just not quite where they should have been and felt that they weren't really trying hard enough.

The amount of engineering and quality has gone up significantly in recent years in all American cars, and I think that's attributed to 1) stiffer competition (look at those Hyundai's and Kia's now compared to 10 years ago!), and 2) harsher government requirements for fuel economy and "safety" items. Personally I'm glad they're finally getting back to being competitive because quite frankly, I'm not liking the direction BMW is taking with some of their future plans.

That Caddy ATS is looking like a mighty fine contender for the BMW 3 series. It's only a matter of time before the Americans become good enough to surpass the Germans (in certain cases have pretty much tied or maybe even surpassed a little bit) overall.


Regarding BMW, they tend to overengineer things sometimes, which ultimately causes them to not foresee the results of this overengineering. Let's take the pillar trim fabric as an example for our E46's. They all peel eventually. Well, the fabric is nice because it has a nicer feel and look than standard hard plastic that most makes were using. Unfortunately, they couldn't have seen the effects of it until the car was quite a bit older while testing. Same goes for window regulators; perhaps they just happened to not have any issues with their test cars. ZKW's? That becomes a problem years after the warranty expires most of the time. The performance of these items is excellent when the items are new, but when worn, they can be a biotch to deal with. I guess this can be said about any car that is of a higher "caliber" per se, such as having an M3 and having to deal with the higher maintenance costs. It is what it is due to the engineering. You can't always foresee every possible outcome.

[prowlerflyer]

You should have seen the crap they put out in the late '70s and '80s.

Although you could say all American cars in period were pretty bad.

One could argue that all cars were pretty bad then. The Japanese countered it with simplicity and no frills, devoting extra effort to reliability. The Germans, unable to abandon their levels if refinement and performance, sought out exotic engineering solutions. While they worked, were of questionable reliability (thermal reactors anyone).

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[3ZHPGUY]

Maybe there was truth to it with some older models but today's Fords are rock solid cars, and the amount of quality in them and "engineering" in that regard have gone up significantly as well. I love the amount of work that was put into the next gen Ford F150. I highly respect Ford now, whereas I had no respect for them 5 years ago.

That F150 may be better today but, I still believe my 2013 Tacoma Off Road will leave it behind having the E-locker hill decent and much more.

[pfr]

Engineering vs. reliability:
The NASA space program spent $1M on developing a ballpoint pen that would work in space.
The Russians used pencils.

- Peter