Rumble Under Hard Acceleration (e46 M3)

[DSC-off]

I have been experiencing a strange vibration/rumbling in my '02 SMG M3 under hard acceleration. When I'm hard on the throttle (mostly in gears 1-3) there is a rough vibration from the rear of the car, I want to say it's from the rightish side but that could potentially be my imagination (definitely rear though). The rumble typically only lasts 300-500 RPM under hard acceleration (which goes by very quickly), it occurs somewhere in the 3500-4500 RPM range. If I am accelerating slowly through this RPM range it does not seem to occur. It is like a hard stutter, almost like a series of ABS pulses or some sort of slip/grab. This rumble/stutter seems to have gotten more severe recently.

The Diff oil was changed (with the friction modifier) maybe 15,000 miles ago (when I bought the car). After doing some reading on various forums I was pretty convinced that the rumbling issue was caused by the central support bearing or the guibo, so I had both replaced last week. Sadly this did not resolve the issue.

Other random information (not sure if any of it's relevant): The car has had a noticeable whine from the diff whenever your off the throttle (its been doing it since I bought it more than a year ago), but various people have told me that it's normal for these diffs to make some noise. I had the sub-frame reinforced with the Turner kit about 6ish months ago. I had the RTABs replaced (stock bushings with limiters) about 3 months ago. The car throws a flat tire warning maybe once every ~3 weeks, I clear it and it goes away. Transmission is SMG and I'm betting the clutch has never been replaced, the car has about 103k miles on it (but it does pass the 6th gear-40mph and floor it test).


I am pretty stumped as to what might be causing this rumble/vibration, but it is really worrying me. Can anyone point me in the right direction for what might be causing this? I really hate taking anything to the stealership, but this problem seems to beyond the knowledge level of my local indys.

[LivesNearCostco]

I would say it's definitely guibo and/or CSB, because that's what caused these same symptoms in my E46 (non-M). Except you just replaced those. Given that, other possibilities are unbalanced wheel, bent wheel, broken transmission mounts, broken motor mounts, bad wheel bearing, bad U-joint on driveshaft and unbalanced driveshaft. If the shop replacing the CSB took apart the driveshaft and put it together differently, that could have unbalanced it.

I've heard a whine is normal in some LSDs, not sure if it's normal in yours.

[DSC-off]

Would an unbalanced/bent wheel manifest in such specific circumstances? I thought it would cause more general vibrations all the time. I was assuming that any sort of wheel imbalance would be a steady and very noticeable shudder at higher speeds. The car is reasonably smooth well above a hundred. Wouldn't a wheel bearing also be very wheel speed dependant, not engine speed dependant?

I had read that drive shaft unbalancing or bad U-joints could maybe cause something like this. This may be a dumb question but I've never taken the drive shaft apart on this car, is it a finite amount of configurations (like two) that the drive shaft can be re-assembled in or is it infinite configurations? Namely, would there be any chance of re-assembling it right, or if there were no marks made to track the "balanced" configuration am i just shooting in the dark?

I doubt the shop that did the CSB/Guibo did anything wrong regarding the driveshaft balance as the rumble problem was there before they touched it, but the shop that did the subframe reinforcement might have forgot to mark them.

[M3TA5IN]

I would like to take a ride with you and pin point where the vibration is coming from.

E46 M3 SMGs are known to have a "shudder" or vibration and a clutch replacement normally fixes this, BUT I don't think this is your problem because you are getting it at high RPMs under hard acceleration. So this makes me think that possible you need to replace some more bushings. Specifically the center support bushings. Your driveshaft can flex and these cars are so tight together the vibration could be your driveshaft slightly rubbing when it flexes.

Chances are it could be doing it in a larger range too you just can't notice it because of the plethora of useless sound deading material that is on these cars.

When I ripped out all the interior on the M3 and went for a drive I discovered all kind of problems/sounds I had no idea about before because I couldn't hear them.

I don't think it is a wheel, that is very noticeable the faster you go and I think you're a pretty smart dude and would know this.

Edit: don't mind me, still asleep. Didnt put CSB and center support bushing together lol


Sent from my fancy city machine.

[UdubBadger]

might not be wheel but possibly rotor warping? the diff in these cars is super weird, I get a clicking sometimes when I hit it hard going into 2nd or 3rd in my 6MT. It could be normal but maybe not.

[LivesNearCostco]

The driveshaft has splines that line up. Mine has somewhere between 16 and 24 splines, giving 16-24 assembly options. The M3 driveshaft is different but is probably also splined. If you are lucky, the driveshaft was already marked or the first shop to take it apart marked it to show how it goes back together. There are shops that can test and rebalance your driveshaft, but you have to take it off and send it to them. If the U-joint is bad, it can be replaced but not sure how to tell if a U-joint is bad.

I don't know if an unbalanced driveshaft could cause as much thumping as you're talking about. I wonder if there is chance the shop made an installation mistake and the new CSB has failed already? But only way to tell is to drop the heat shield. On my car that requires dropping the exhaust--not sure if exhaust has to come off on the M3.

I had read that drive shaft unbalancing or bad U-joints could maybe cause something like this. This may be a dumb question but I've never taken the drive shaft apart on this car, is it a finite amount of configurations (like two) that the drive shaft can be re-assembled in or is it infinite configurations? Namely, would there be any chance of re-assembling it right, or if there were no marks made to track the "balanced" configuration am i just shooting in the dark?

I doubt the shop that did the CSB/Guibo did anything wrong regarding the driveshaft balance as the rumble problem was there before they touched it, but the shop that did the subframe reinforcement might have forgot to mark them.

[kakashi169]

I had this happen to me before too and it turned out to be a bad ignition coil and spark plugs. Check those.

[M3TA5IN]

The driveshaft has splines that line up. Mine has somewhere between 16 and 24 splines, giving 16-24 assembly options. The M3 driveshaft is different but is probably also splined. If you are lucky, the driveshaft was already marked or the first shop to take it apart marked it to show how it goes back together. There are shops that can test and rebalance your driveshaft, but you have to take it off and send it to them. If the U-joint is bad, it can be replaced but not sure how to tell if a U-joint is bad.

I don't know if an unbalanced driveshaft could cause as much thumping as you're talking about. I wonder if there is chance the shop made an installation mistake and the new CSB has failed already? But only way to tell is to drop the heat shield. On my car that requires dropping the exhaust--not sure if exhaust has to come off on the M3.

There are actually multiple assembly options. I just looked at the e46 M3 driveshaft and it has a CV joint which I didn't know that.

However, these assembly options would only be the case if the DS was completely taken apart. In reality as a whole drive shaft there should only be 1 or 2 options. BMWs use a flange set up and looks like the bolt pattern will only go one way.

It is rare that u joints do go bad but it is possible. I don't know if BMWs have grease points on them either.

An out of balance driveshaft is extremely noticeable though. I would actually expect him to have more vibration than he is if this was the case.

The CV joint could be wore out as well and binding causing the vibration.

Disclaimer: this is all coming from my driveline knowledge in jeeps. I've never actually worked on a BMW driveline.


Sent from my fancy city machine.

[DSC-off]

A shop I took it to last week noticed that the transmission was somewhat loose, they said that they could move it about an inch. They are going to put some new transmission mounts in tomorrow (hopefully without taking the whole car apart).

I also found some NGK oem plugs on amazon for what appeared to be a reasonable price so I'm going to throw those in for good measure as well (at least 30,000 miles on the current plugs, probably more). If a coil pack was bad (or going bad) the car would be throwing a cylinder misfire code wouldn't it?

[Torxuvin]

When did you have your last valve adjustment? I had a buddy whose M3 was way off. I think he had to use 19 shims or something absurd to fix it. It had a shutter around 3-4k under acceleration. Completely gone now. Gained a lot of power back.

I suppose it could be an smg thing. I'm much more familiar with the 6spds.

[LivesNearCostco]

The driveshaft can connect to the transmission in only 3 ways (through the guibo), and connect to the diff in 2 or 4 ways (not sure). I meant the two halves of the driveshaft can be reconnected in many ways, depending on how many splines they have. But disclaimer, I'm speaking of the ZHP driveshaft and realize the M3 could have a different one.

If the transmission or motor mounts let the transmission move an inch under a prybar or mechanic's shove, then maybe that is indeed the problem.


There are actually multiple assembly options. I just looked at the e46 M3 driveshaft and it has a CV joint which I didn't know that.

However, these assembly options would only be the case if the DS was completely taken apart. In reality as a whole drive shaft there should only be 1 or 2 options. BMWs use a flange set up and looks like the bolt pattern will only go one way.

[DSC-off]

The Inspection II valve adjustment was carried out about 20,000 miles ago (before I bought it). I was assuming that it was fine for at least another 10k. Anyone have any good recommendations for how frequently the valves need to be adjusted on the S54?

I'm guessing from the information provided that the balance of the driveshaft is based on the assembly of the splined portion in the middle (which has some number of configurations greater than 4)? I was just asking as I haven't taken it apart, if there was only two or three potential configurations I would consider taking it apart and trying a different one, if there's more than 4 configurations I'll have to get a little more desperate before start stabbing in the dark blindly.

[UdubBadger]

50k from what I hear as long as you don't go Ike on it like it's name was Tina.

[M3TA5IN]

50k from what I hear as long as you don't go Ike on it like it's name was Tina.

What's the point then :dunno


:D


Sent from my fancy city machine.

[UdubBadger]

I mean like weekly visits to the track. I go Ike on the Eisenhower Expressway (see what I did there) all the time but it's not like the HOURS of hard pulls and high revving you'd get from track weekends.

[Torxuvin]

BMW recommends every 30k miles. At 60k I only needed 2 shims. At ~85k my buddy needed 19. Not sure of the his car's history though. I imagine that it varies. Do you have the actual receipt for the work being done? Wouldn't surprise me to hear that the valve adjustment was skipped.

I would rather error on the side of doing it more often. Besides, it's a good excuse to check your vanos.

[DSC-off]

Well the transmission mounts are replaced, and it's still having that rumble/stutter from the back (I could swear it's the right side). Is there anything that in the right-rear area that might trigger this type of vibration under hard acceleration?

[M3TA5IN]

Loose exhaust hanger? Without hearing the actual rumble it is hard to say. If your exhaust isn't tight under hard acceleration it will "rumble" against the heat shield.


Sent from my fancy city machine.

[UdubBadger]

^ yep this guy is correct


- Going HAM mobile

[M3TA5IN]

Ok guys, so i went for a ride in Jim's car and now I am stumped. Any help would be appreciated.

The "sound" is best heard in 1st through 3rd gear between 3k and 4k RPMs. However it is not consistent and can also be heard in other gears but not as loud.

It last for about a second or two, it is a pretty good vibration and a sound that I can not pin point. It doesnt sound like a bushing binding to me or metal. It sounds like it is coming from the center of the car directly behind the front seats.

This is going to sound odd, but it sounds like the sound a Pigeon makes, but louder and slower. That is the only way I can describe it.

Any thoughts?

Remember car is a SMG tranny and the CSB, tranny mounts, and Guibo have all been replaced with no joy in fixing it.

[danewilson77]

Driveline/tyranny related. Perform fluid swap as a cheap troubleshooting step.

:dunno

HTC DNA ON TT4 BETA, WILLIAMSBURG, VA

[UdubBadger]

doesn't do much on the trans, ask me how I know.

[UdubBadger]

Ok guys, so i went for a ride in Jim's car and now I am stumped. Any help would be appreciated.

The "sound" is best heard in 1st through 3rd gear between 3k and 4k RPMs. However it is not consistent and can also be heard in other gears but not as loud.

It last for about a second or two, it is a pretty good vibration and a sound that I can not pin point. It doesnt sound like a bushing binding to me or metal. It sounds like it is coming from the center of the car directly behind the front seats.

This is going to sound odd, but it sounds like the sound a Pigeon makes, but louder and slower. That is the only way I can describe it.

Any thoughts?

Remember car is a SMG tranny and the CSB, tranny mounts, and Guibo have all been replaced with no joy in fixing it.

the location would indicate the diff, driveshaft or rear axle. If not those, maybe the wheel bearings?

[M3TA5IN]

the location would indicate the diff, driveshaft or rear axle. If not those, maybe the wheel barrings?

Hm, wheel bearings. Interesting with the sound now that you mention it. However it is coming from a very odd spot but I guess it could be vibrating through the driveline.


Sent from my fancy city machine.

[UdubBadger]

Well the issue with that is you'd likely not hear it through the gears but rather at certain speeds. If it's at certain RPMs it's most likely the drive shaft between the tranny and the diff.

[M3TA5IN]

Well the issue with that is you'd likely not hear it through the gears but rather at certain speeds. If it's at certain RPMs it's most likely the drive shaft between the tranny and the diff.

I keep thinking CV joint, makes sent with the miles if its original, but they have taken the driveshaft off and looked at I don't see how that could be missed.


Sent from my fancy city machine.

[DSC-off]

Unless a vibration is being passed back up from somewhere else, it really seems like driveshaft or diff from the location of the noise.

Looking at this driveshaft (http://www.turnermotorsport.com/p-4951-driveshaft-e46-m3-2001-2006.aspx). At least on that the U-joint will be replaceable in the future.

The shop I took it too for the Guibo and CSB charged me $400 for labor. That seemed a little steep, but I've never done them before. I can't imagine replacing the driveshaft would be any different then swapping the Guibo and CSB (maybe slightly cheaper if the driveshaft comes with the CSB already on it). Does $400 sound high for the job?

[UdubBadger]

Depends on the shops rate, sound like 3-5 billable hours is about right.


- Going HAM mobile

[DSC-off]

Anyone have any strong feelings if this type of issue could be caused by diff mounts? I'm not sure when (if ever) the diff mounts were replaced. That would probably be a heck of alot cheaper than getting a whole new driveshaft, but I'm not sure if it could cause a problem like this.

[danewilson77]

I'm at 183k and never changed diff mounts.

Just a data point.

HTC DNA ON TT4 BETA, WILLIAMSBURG, VA

[UdubBadger]

Yeah mounts wouldn't do that


- Going HAM mobile

[DSC-off]

Hoooray! Problem has been resolved. A whole balanced driveshaft assembly with a new U-joint and CV Joint was installed today and there is no sign of the rumble. It seemed like there was some unnecessary play in the U-joint on the old shaft while it was installed, but once removed there was no sign of an issue in the U-joint. It seems like even a small degradation in the U-joint can cause some weird vibrations under heavy load.

So I think the moral of the story is if you hear a large loud pidgeon making noises from the rear center of the car when you are nailing the gas, it could very well be a driveshaft U-joint beginning to fail.

[BimmerWill]

Glad to hear you got it sorted out!

Its crazy how much you can pick up in the driveshaft alone even if it is just a little out of whack so its not surprising the u joint was causing you issues.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

[UdubBadger]

Great news!

[johnrando]

Great news!

+1

[Lanister]

Hey guys, since I am investigating the same symptoms DSC-off (who started this thread) was having, I wanted to resurrect this thread to hopefully zero-in on the issue a bit more.

To restate, the issue I'm having is mild vibration under load (med-hard acceleration) between 3000-5000rpm. Most notably in 2-3-4 gears. As soon as I get off the throttle the vibration fades away; and when I just cruise around there's also no vibration of any kind. Also, no clunking or knocking sounds to note at any point.

Last week, I have replaced the guibo and the center support bearing (CSB), which didn't solve the problem. Also replaced (auto) transmission fluid to boot. So it's obviously something else.

As you can tell in post #32 above, DSC-off states that the issue was resolved by replacing the entire drive shaft (new u joint) and the cv joint with new components. Fair enough, but which one actually solved the problem? It's very unlikely that both were the culprit. He goes on to mention that it was likely that the degraded u-joint was the problem but, when removed from the car, it didn't exhibit any signs of degradation. This makes me wonder if it was indeed the u-joint at all. The reason behind my skepticism is the following discussion, where the same issue was resolved by replacement of the cv joint and guibo (check).

http://www.bmwfanatics.co.za/showthread.php?tid=36383

The cv joint in the above thread appears to have been compromised to the point that it lost its lubrication, which caused the expected failure. However, while replacing the center support bearing (csb) on my zhp, I took a good look at my cv joint and it looked clean and dry. Moreover, it didn't appear to have any extra play nor did it make any noises (clunks) when I rotated the drive shaft by hand. So this brings me back to the drive shaft and the u-joint, which also appeared to be solid when I inspected them. Having said all that, I don't have much experience with close inspections of this sort so it's possible I wasn't looking for the right signs.

So I'm wondering about the following:

1) Is it possible for the seemingly good u joint to fail enough to cause vibration under load? If yes, how can I confirm/dis-confirm it?

2) Is it possible for the seemingly good cv joint to fail enough to cause vibration under load? If yes, how can I check that it's the case?

My thoughts are, if I'm going to go back in there, I'd rather get it all over with in one go and never look back. At the same time, both items are costly so it would seem frivolous to just try and go all out--knowing that one of the components is being replaced in vain.

Any input/feedback is much appreciated. :thumbsup

[derbo]

I think I might have to follow your footsteps too Giya and resolve my minor rumble.

[Lanister]

I wonder how many people are rolling around with this issue and just not giving a crap about it :)

[UdubBadger]

I just attribute mine to the headers :)
I've replaced almost everything I can on the driveshaft and suspension except the drive shaft itself.

Goin' HAM mobile

[brettbimmer]

Lanister, how many miles are on your ZHP? Not sure that I can help with this, but thought that this info. may be helpful to know.

[Lanister]

I'm at 92k, which is rather low for driveshaft issues.



Sent from outer space...

[brettbimmer]

^That does seem like really low mileage for driveshaft issues. I have a rumble in my E36, but I believe that it is related to a tired dual-mass flywheel. With the AT in your ZHP, I don't see that to be the problem with your car. Wish I could be of more help.

[Lanister]

Well, perhaps I have the answer to this mystery. But before I can confirm it, I need some feedback from you guys. I got the drive shaft completely out, which let me closely inspect the cv joint at the back end of it. While it does move, it is far from fluid. I have a pretty hard time moving it about by hand, even in small increments. It takes some force before it moves, and when it does, it moves abruptly. Although I am not sure if drive shaft cv joint is supposed to move differently from an axle cv joint (which is usually pretty smooth), given the thought to what the drive shaft is doing when it causes the cv joint to flex, I would imagine that it should move way smoother than that, at least in the small flex range. Surprisingly, when I popped the joint cover, there was plenty of grease on the inside and everything appeared pretty nice and clean. The rubber boot that connects to the shaft is fully intact and there's no corrosion anywhere. So I am not sure what would cause the joint to fail beside just some manufacturing defect.

If this is indeed the culprit, then the rest is easy.

So here are my questions to ya'll:

What should I expect from a joint like that in terms of movement?
Should it be hard to move by hand?
Any other feedback?

[3ZHP]

All of the U-Joint caps should move, rotate or pivot very smooth. The caps are filled with little roller pins that if one fails it will rapidly deteriorate others contained within that cap and the apposing one. Once that happens it throws the drive shaft out of balance especially under load. One of those things you need to replace because of the symptoms. If you attempt to dismantle it you may not be able to get it back together.

[Lanister]

All of the U-Joint caps should move, rotate or pivot very smooth. The caps are filled with little roller pins that if one fails it will rapidly deteriorate others contained within that cap and the apposing one. Once that happens it throws the drive shaft out of balance especially under load. One of those things you need to replace because of the symptoms. If you attempt to dismantle it you may not be able to get it back together.

What your'e describing is the U-Joint, at least on the drive shaft. The CV joint has 6 pretty big ball bearing-like balls. Here's how it looks on the inside:

http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/attachments/e39-m5-e52-z8-discussion/128859d1300132187-replacing-rear-cv-joint-driveshaft-anyone-done-kensington-chelsea-20110217-00122.jpg

But they do fail, although not as early as 92k. But hey, considering what these things go through, it's not surprising that some would fail sooner than others.

[3ZHP]

If that's what your talking about, I refer to those a Spindle Bearings and yes the don't fail very often. I actually worked in a GM facility that manufactured them for 7+ years. The Ball Races in those are induction hardened and the bearing balls are like 68 Rc (hard shit). Their basically throw aways if something goes wrong. Most of the failure involves some type of contamination like water. Any manufacturing issue would have happened early in its life. I know the ones I was involved with we're tested for weeks without lubricant and never catastrophically failed. It sucks that I can't tell you more than bite the bullet and try one.

One last note, something weird about them but historically it's the opposite side from what you think.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)

[Lanister]

Well, here's the update. I got my driveshaft re-manufactured by a highly recommended shop called Driveshaft Specialist (Thanks Derbo/Kalim for recommendation). The shop is located in Texas but also has an affiliate in LA. They ship you a new re-manufactured shaft and you ship them yours. Great customer service and turnaround time. Basically, they've placed every moving part on the driveshaft, which includes a new U-Joint, new CSB, and a new CV joint. After that, the shaft was balanced with all new components on it. Following the re-installation, I am happy to report that the vibrations are completely gone and the car feels fantastic. While I was down there, I also replaced the transmission mounts, which appeared normal until I took them out. As it turns out, they were significantly deformed so the transmission was likely out of alignment--causing stress on the driveshaft and its components. So go figure, more than likely it was the cv joint failure but my advice would be to replace the transmission mounts before taking off the driveshaft and going the re-manufacture route.

For a while, I was tempted to just buy the cv joint kit and install it myself, which would have cost me about $150 (as opposed to $428). However, had it not solved the problem, it would have been a huge bummer to have to drop the exhaust to get back at the driveshaft again. So I made the call to get the whole shaft re-done, re-install it and never go back there again.

[johnrando]

Nice work and good advice. Glad to hear it's solved.

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2