Front wheels wonder a bit more than they should

[ZHPWelt]

I have only had my ZHP since end of January this year. When I bought it it had bad tires and needed an Alignment very bad. After replacing the tires and having my local BMW shop go over the car we later found the Steering Knuckle was worn out.

My car has ~55K miles on it now and even after installing Michelin PSS tires and fixing the above the car still feels a little loose in the tracking department ..

Anyone else have these same issues.

Suggestions

[BimmerWill]

Have the front control arm bushings been replaced at any point? That is usually the first place we look when dealing with a wondering front end..

sent from S4

[danewilson77]

Steering guibo perhaps?

Sent from my S4 > Mason, OH

[ZHPWelt]

Steering guibo, Steering Knuckle had been replaced.

I have heard many say to replace the Control Arm Bushings, but for a car with on 55K miles should they really need to be??

Also it sounds like some change to OEM bushings others to Plastic. Do the Plastic squeak after time?

Thanks for the suggestions

[danewilson77]

Oh. Tie rod ball joints. Did they look at those? Surely they did.

Sent from my S4 > Mason, OH

[ZHPWelt]

Yes, they checked my car over twice at BMW and said nothing was loose including my control arm bushings.

[danewilson77]

I don't believe them. :shifty

Sent from my S4 > Mason, OH

[midlandtech]

I don't believe them. :shifty

Sent from my S4 > Mason, OH

Me either. what specs did they use when aligning it?

[ZHPWelt]

The guys that looked it over are friends of mine and have been at the dealer for 20 years or so. So I have to believe they know a few things.

Even so I would like to hear from those who have replaced Control Arm bushings to poly type. Do they squeak??

[ZHPWelt]

They used mostly stock, however I had them add some more toe in to help with the wandering issue.

[midlandtech]

The guys that looked it over are friends of mine and have been at the dealer for 20 years or so. So I have to believe they know a few things.

Even so I would like to hear from those who have replaced Control Arm bushings to poly type. Do they squeak??


I'm not implying incompetence. the FCABs may still be worn I replaced mine with OEM when I was starting to notice a slight wondering and it corrected the problem.

[danewilson77]

I wouldn't go poly. No need.

Sent from my S4 > Mason, OH

[Hermes]

I replaced mine with those from a Z4M

[danewilson77]

I replaced mine with those from a Z4M

This.

Sent from my S4 > Mason, OH

[ZHPWelt]

Nice idea, got to be stiffer than ZHP OEM. The fitment is the same?

[ZHPWelt]

I have another question regarding this issue. Who has installed a Strut Tower Brace and did it help with front end stiffness or is it just for looks.

[midlandtech]

I've got one but cant comment on stiffness as I have never driven with it off. I will say that sway bars will yield more "stiffness" than a strut bar though

[QC_ZHP]

Any vibrations Welt?

[danewilson77]

I have another question regarding this issue. Who has installed a Strut Tower Brace and did it help with front end stiffness or is it just for looks.

Mainly for looks and to prevent strut tower mushrooming.

I will say that I "feel" like the car handles better with the strut bar though.

Sent from my S4 > Mason, OH

[ZHPWelt]

No vibrations, drives great just feel like the front wheels want to do a little wandering on their own.

[WOLFN8TR]

No vibrations, drives great just feel like the front wheels want to do a little wandering on their own.

I was having the same issue. I recently replaced the two front tires and it stopped. The old tires caught every groove and wandered all over the place.

[johnrando]

Mainly for looks and to prevent strut tower mushrooming.

I will say that I "feel" like the car handles better with the strut bar though.

Sent from my S4 > Mason, OH

+1. And, it's good engine eye candy.

[Hermes]

Nice idea, got to be stiffer than ZHP OEM. The fitment is the same?

They fit the same, but are offset.

More info on this old thread

http://www.zhpmafia.com/forums/showthread.php?5173-MZ4-Solid-rubber-offset-bushings!

[330i ZHP]

some of this may be due to the road surfaces in your area - you could be getting minor to severe tram lining

[az3579]

What tires did you replace with? I have three sets, and with two of the sets the tires tramline pretty badly. The third set, the tires just kind of want to make the car wander off on its own as well. If everything checks out, then there probably isn't anything left other than tires. Perhaps you have a defective set.

The way to test this is to take the tires from a car that has no issue like this and try with those.


Dane,
You say there is no need for poly FCABs. They are far more durable than OEM ones, which is a pretty big selling point, albeit a bit less comfortable. It's a tradeoff, as with any upgrade.

[echo46]

I'm with above, start with control arm bushings, check control arm ball joints, check sway bar bushings and end links. Check for any little play or cracking in the bushing. Do you have any steering wheel shimmy or vibration? The bushings could definitely be shot at 55,000 miles. Mine were. If you go with ploys, I would suggest AKG 90s. Very firm but not too harsh. It's one of their softer bushings.

[danewilson77]

Dane,
You say there is no need for poly FCABs. They are far more durable than OEM ones, which is a pretty big selling point, albeit a bit less comfortable. It's a tradeoff, as with any upgrade.

True. But I don't think the benefit outweighs the harshness on a daily driven vehicle. Normal Lemforder CAB's should last minimum 50k miles, and they're less expensive than poly. Just my opinion.


Thought of tramlining as well, but "new tires" negated my post regarding that.

Sent from my S4 > Mason, OH

[Johal E32]

^this. I only got like 35k out of my OEM FCABS. But I also live in the Bay Area where the roads are horrid.. My Fcabs weren't shot, but bad enough that I wanted to replace them.

[johnrando]

All good suggestions. To quote Echo, I'm with his "start with control arm bushings, check control arm ball joints, check sway bar bushings and end links. Check for any little play or cracking in the bushing. Do you have any steering wheel shimmy or vibration?"

BTW, my front wheels wonder too. Sometimes they wonder, "Why are we win the front and not the back? What are we doing here? Anybody else tired? When will we get some more air?" :biggrin Sorry, couldn't resist.

[danewilson77]

:rofl

Sent from my S4 > Mason, OH

[johnrando]

Thanks Dane. :)

[ZHPWelt]

They fit the same, but are offset.

More info on this old thread

http://www.zhpmafia.com/forums/showthread.php?5173-MZ4-Solid-rubber-offset-bushings!

Thanks for the help on this.

[echo46]

That's actually funny, johnrando.

[Dave1027]

They used mostly stock, however I had them add some more toe in to help with the wandering issue.

Scan and post your alignment sheet. If nothing is worn out then it has to be down to tires or alignment. I think these cars naturally tramline and negative camber makes it worse.

[LivesNearCostco]

In my case tramlining seemed related more to worn tires and worn tie rods than anything else. I did see tramlining varied depending on which tires were on car, largest reduction in steering looseness was from new tie rods. Replacing stock FCABs with AKG poly (I think 90A) was not too harsh but didn't reduce steering play, probably because the stock ones in place were still in good shape. Replacing steering guibo with new OEM didn't help much either, but again the one replaced was in pretty good shape.

I've done poly bushings only up front (swaybar and FCABs) and am happy with their performance and ride, but something is squeaking if I make turns at low speeds and I think either the FCAB or swaybar bushings need more grease. Swaybar ones have only been on since 3 months and have zerk fittings so regreasing should be easy. FCABs have been on 11 months and 15,000 miles, but greasing them will require dropping reinforcement plate and detaching lolipops, methinks.

Edit: Agree with whoever said swaybar makes bigger difference than strut tower bar. Big cornering improvement from my upgraded front swaybar, tiny improvement in front-end feeling (feels more solid) from strut tower bar. STB does make adjusting the camber plates easier.

[ZHPWelt]

So I did a two step fix on my car. When I purchased it the tires were worn and of a cheap brand as I mentioned in my OP. I installed new Michelin PSS's and had the car aligned with OEM specs, but added more toe in to help with on center feel. Both times all Suspension components were Thoroughly Inspected by 20 year plus Mechanics and an Alignment Specialist.

This first step fixed this issue by about 50%, however when changing lanes with a Crown between lanes the car would literally pull itself a few feet over the crown even though I was trying to gradually cross over it. The second fix was found by turning the steering wheel with the engine off, key in and noticing the play in the Steering and a Clunking sound. We traced this to a worn Guibo or Steering Knuckle. This fixed the last ~40%.

So it's this last 10% I'm looking to fix.

Okay, I'm ready for some flaming here. This is my first E46 but certainly not my first BMW. In My Opinion the E46 has the most Dead, Unnecessarily Heavy Steering feel of any BMW I have driven or owned, and I have driven many E46's over the years and passed on all of them until the ZHP. My earlier and later BMW's including my 07 335i and my current 1M are in such a different league with it comes to steering feel it's ridiculous.

This is a bit frustrating to say the least. I have Never owned a car with just over 50K miles that has needed a new Steering Knuckle because the rubber was already worn out, and or suggesting that the control arm bushings and tie rods need to be replaced already is hard for me to wrap my head around.

Here's my take on part of the problem with the E46's steering feel and at least the Guibo early failure issue. The first year E46 had what many complained as Too Light a Steering feel. So BMW designed a new Steering Rack that reduced the Boosted pressure, which made the US market happier, however they didn't replace items like the Guibo with stiffer rubber to handle the increase torque from the steering wheel needed to move the front wheels. Then there is our Great Looking style 135 18" Wheels, which IMO are just a bit too much for all the bushings in the car. Again a bit of an oversight on BMW's part when engineering this car. But then again it was the BMW Individual team that brought us the ZHP, maybe a bit more input from the M Group would have helped here?

Okay that's my take on this and MO. Sorry in advance if this ruffles some feathers on the board. :)

[330i ZHP]

wants performance and precision...known to wear earlier...complains

[ZHPWelt]

wants performance and precision...known to wear earlier...complains

Isn't that what BMW's offer? Performance and Precision.

[330i ZHP]

exactly...but to achieve that, they use materials that are a compromise for the sake of comfort. BMW admits the rubber parts are not made the same way as other brands.

[ZHPWelt]

exactly...but to achieve that, they use materials that are a compromise for the sake of comfort. BMW admits the rubber parts are not made the same way as other brands.

What? Have you owned a BMW with over 50K other than an E46? If so have you had to replace bushings on it? So you do own a ZHP right?

[Hermes]

What? Have you owned a BMW with over 50K other than an E46? If so have you had to replace bushings on it? So you do own a ZHP right?

^Yes, Stuart has owned such vehicles (technically he doesn't own a ZHP anymore but did until recently). So have I, and yes I have dealt with suspension issues on all my cars. There is almost always something that can be done to the suspension on an old(er) car to make it ride better.

Don't even get me started on my long term plans for the E21

[ZHPWelt]

Sorry but have you read this thread. The last thing I am looking for is to make my car ride better. And yes one can always change suspension parts but shouldn't need to unless you want to or until the car has way more than 50K on it.

[ZHPWelt]

In an attempt to get this post back on track. I do like the idea of using Z4M bushings as a replacement for ZHP OEM. They must be made from less compliant rubber and should be a good upgrade. Thanks for these suggestions.

[johnrando]

Yup. BTW, no flaming allowed nor tolerated. Certainly OK to have a difference of opinion, but we attack issues, not each other.

[Johal E32]

In an attempt to get this post back on track. I do like the idea of using Z4M bushings as a replacement for ZHP OEM. They must be made from less compliant rubber and should be a good upgrade. Thanks for these suggestions.

A few months ago I called a bunch of dealers in CA and a few on the East Coast for OEM Z4 M fcabs and it was on backorder from Germany. They told me wait till late October, maybe new years. Just a heads up.

Check some 3rd party vendors like Turner Motorsports they might have a set laying around.

[Hermes]

By better I meant more like it was when new. All of our cars are 2 generations old even if they don't have that many miles. The parts just get brittle over time.

The only non stock parts of my ZHP suspension are Z4M bushings, rough road plates, and a strut brace.

I had to deal with tons of suspension issues on my old E32 (got it with about 40k miles) and my old E24 (60k miles).

My 2002 is a whole other story because I got the car with 40 years on it so I'll just skip that one.

The E21 has a faulty suspension geometry from the factory, it was just designed wrong to begin with. That is the main issue I have to deal with and why I have such long term and crazy plans for it (full tubular suspension upgrade).

[danewilson77]

IMHO, I really like the heavier steering. It makes me feel connected to the car, and the car is connected to the road. Can't stand light steering.

Sent from my S4 > Mason, OH

[ZHPWelt]

IMHO, I really like the heavier steering. It makes me feel connected to the car, and the car is connected to the road. Can't stand light steering.

Sent from my S4 > Mason, OH

I agree to a point. My M10 1600, 2002, and 1972 2002tii had no power steering at all. They were a bit tough to say parallel park while stopped. However they also weighed 2000lbs and had w185 size tires. I also don't like a power steering that only requires one finger to turn, but the steering shouldn't be so hard to turn that it wears out the Steering Knuckle rubber in short order either. In the old days and on most cars you Never have to change the steering knuckle for the life of the car. :)

[ZHPWelt]

Yup. BTW, no flaming allowed nor tolerated. Certainly OK to have a difference of opinion, but we attack issues, not each other.

Thanks :)

[danewilson77]

I agree to a point. My M10 1600, 2002, and 1972 2002tii had no power steering at all. They were a bit tough to say parallel park while stopped. However they also weighed 2000lbs and had w185 size tires. I also don't like a power steering that only requires one finger to turn, but the steering shouldn't be so hard to turn that it wears out the Steering Knuckle rubber in short order either. In the old days and on most cars you Never have to change the steering knuckle for the life of the car. :)

Ok. I think the e46's steering is perfect.

We all are going to have different opinions.

I understand what you're saying.

Sent from my S4 > Mason, OH

[echo46]

In fact, when I was looking at Ms, there was a lot of discussion about people wishing that the M steering was more like the ZHP's steering. Indeed, I believe that BMW addressed the problem in the ZCP package and tried to get the M steering closer to that of the ZHP. Also, depending on how and where the car was driven, it is not crazy that parts of the suspension are worn out, especially the softer rubber bushings. In the OP's case I am of the opinion that he FCABS, End Links and sway bar bushings need replacing. By the way, this is not a hard DIY and not that expensive.

[Dave1027]

IMHO, I really like the heavier steering. It makes me feel connected to the car, and the car is connected to the road. Can't stand light steering.
Playing devils advocate here, it's a pain in the @$$ when I'm trying to steer out of a parking spot with one hand.

OP, I'm not going to flame you. I can appreciate your side of this. There is no such thing as a perfect car. Every vehicle I have ever owned has had something I didn't like about it. My ZHP is exactly the same as yours but there are so many good aspects, so in the end I still love it. I see it this way, the suspension design is one that works extremely well when brand new but as soon as things begin to wear, it's shortcomings become blatantly obvious.

About the Z4 fcabs, I thought all they did was give more caster but maybe that might be exactly what the suspension geometry needs?

[ZHPWelt]

^ Thanks for your comments. :) It's just that I have driven / owned so many BMW's with over 50K on them that do not suffer from worn suspension issues that this is hard to adjust to. I'll admit that age is partly responsible as well as rubber does degrade over time. Looks like a Bushing replacement may be in order.

If that doesn't work there may be a low mileage ZHP on the market next spring. :)

[330i ZHP]

Yup. BTW, no flaming allowed nor tolerated. Certainly OK to have a difference of opinion, but we attack issues, not each other.

I decided to just leave it alone...

[ZHPWelt]

^ Read something he didn't like...Started to Flame...Reminded not to...Decided to let it alone...

Another Great Summation. :)

[330i ZHP]

I never flamed

dude, calm down

[danewilson77]

Both just let it go. Unecessary Instigatory remarks were made.

No "flaming" occurred.

Let's move on and stay on topic.

Thanks.

Sent from my S4 > Mason, OH

[ZHPWelt]

Summation remarks are not cool or helpful at all.

[Hermes]

Seriously dude, move on. We're not like other forums. This is a family and we treat each other with respect

[danewilson77]

Summation remarks are not cool or helpful at all.

Neither is dragging the bullshit out.... On and on.

We'll just lock this one down for a bit as productivity = zero at this point.

[danewilson77]

Thread re-opened.

Be respectful.

Sent from my S4 > Mason, OH