E46 Leather Seats - Liveability in winter and summer

[az3579]

For some reason, I remember reading somewhere that BMW leather was treated with something so it isn't as hot in the summer and isn't as cold in the winter. I'm not sure if that was for the E9x generation or if this applies to the E46. For those of you with leather, how is it like to live with it in the summer when it's really hot and winter when it's really cold? Of course, this only applies to those who get all 4 seasons and not just one (*cough*southernCalifornians*cough*).

I was wondering the other day when it was reeeeeeally cold here (in the teens) what the leather would feel like if I had like an M3 or something (leather being the most common interior in them). I also thought about it when I was helping Charlie with his interior; I wasn't all that comfortable on that leather and it being in the 40's, but I figured maybe it being Nappa leather makes a difference versus the Montana leather that E46's have.

Thoughts?

[Hermes]

Of course, this only applies to those who get all 4 seasons and not just one (*cough*southernCalifornians*cough*).

Hey now, we get 2 seasons. Really hot, and not as much hot. It's kinda like how your seasons are winter and construction :p

If anything, don't do black leather. I hate it so much in the summer, part of the reason I'm so happy to get the cloth seats for the E21 but that car doesn't have AC so it's a tradeoff...

[az3579]

Well JP the sad reality is that eventually I will need a new interior. My interior is fine now (I'm actually impressed with how well it's holding up), but one day I will start to think "perhaps it's time to refresh my interior", and even time that thought pops into mind, the only option seems to be leather. It's the only type of interior I'll be able to easily find used on the market. If I do custom, that would just be far too much money, even if I do cloth. Having to cut the pattern just right and have it installed is just so much money. So, I have to mentally prepare myself to one day need to swap to leather, and would like the facts before such a decision will be made.

The northeast has the extremes; cold in the winter and hot in the summer. The cloth seats stand up to the extremes very well.
For example; in the winter, on a scale of 0-10 (10 is the coldest), the seats feel like a 7.5. 5 would be room temperature, which is impossible in the winter. In the summer, the seats feel like a 6.5 when you initially sit in them (10 being the hottest) if you leave your windows cracked open a little. How do the leathers compare?

[Avetiso]

E46 Nappa would probably be a much better fit. I found the Montana leather to be far too stiff.

[Hermes]

Dario, I think he wants to know more of temperature not how soft the leather is

BP, even with my vent windows and sunroof cracked, and with a sunshade my car bakes like an oven in summer. When I get to it I open my door and let it vent for a few before I dare to sit inside. Also, I don't have tint on the ZHP. The 30% 3M colorstable tint I have on the E21 makes a huge difference even when I had the black leather 911 seats installed. If you don't mind taking a few minutes to deal with a car cover I have found that to be my only solution to keeping the interior of my car at a decent temperature during summer

[Avetiso]

Well, in my experience, the leather is softer when it's hot and stiffer when cold, so perhaps it's a bit relevant? :dunno

Nappa all the way.

[Hermes]

Well if we're gonna get into leather quality

Merino > Nappa > Water Buffalo > Montana

[Johal E32]

I thought buffalo> Nappa?

The buffalo leather in my dad's old 750 was nicer than the leather in my cousins E46 M3 and that has Nappa with only 60k. Been Leatheriqued too.

[Hermes]

Maybe your dad's water buff was in better shape than the buff on Carl's 745i.

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c288/jhermes/4D45D2D2-EF6F-4344-96BF-3BB125440D14-2572-00000458AE4CDA41.jpg

I used a whole bottle of Leatherique on this and it's still kinda rough, I'll do it again once it starts warming up in a few months

[Avetiso]

Well if we're gonna get into leather quality

Merino > Nappa > Water Buffalo > Montana
I'm not too familiar on all BMW leathers, but in reference to the E46, I think that Nappa > Montana.

[pfr]

I have black leather and in the summer (more like from spring till fall) I use a cover that consists of small wooden pieces, so it breathes. In the winter it gets cold but gets pleasant really fast with the heater. Of course it is a question of preferences; I turn off the heater after a minute or two but my wife keeps it on low for hours.
However cold it is, the leather does not get noticeably stiffer.
Hope this helps...
- Peter

[johnrando]

It's def not as hot as you'd think in the summer. It's pretty cold in the winter so I'd try to get heated seats. But, it gets to a reasonable temp soon enough from your body heat and/or car heater. You could go leather then some nice seat covers for winter as on option. But good ones aren't cheap. Interested in what the true winter people have to say.

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[NorCalZman]

Winter: heated seat retrofit
Summer: 3M Crystalline tint

:-)


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[Hermes]

It's def not as hot as you'd think in the summer.

I doubt you have your top up in summer, besides it probably breathes better than my steel top. The leather itself isn't too bad in summer, its the byproduct of an all black interior on a hardtop that your car turns into an oven. It was the same back when I had my E32 with black leather.

BP, maybe buy some grey seats and dye them NB?

[oldzilla]

It's def not as hot as you'd think in the summer. It's pretty cold in the winter so I'd try to get heated seats. But, it gets to a reasonable temp soon enough from your body heat and/or car heater. You could go leather then some nice seat covers for winter as on option. But good ones aren't cheap. Interested in what the true winter people have to say.

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It does get cold in Denver, it have not noticed any real stiffing of the leather (25 degrees and lower). I have heisted seats and yes they make a difference but body heat and the heater work just as well.

[JupiterBMW]

Back to the original question, BP... I am not 100% on this, and I don't know if our E46 cars have it or just the newer cars, but I am fairly sure it is only verts that get a special leather treatment. I remember reading/hearing about this somewhere, but I can't recall...

Either way, I find that even if it isn't ultra hot outside, its all about the sun exposure. If you're in the shade and its still 90+ degrees, the leather is fine... But, even if its only 70 and parked in the sun, it'll be toasty buttcheeks... :biggrin

Hope this helps.

[wsmeyer]

MY2006 is when they started putting something on the leather seats to keep them from getting hot. I assume it's just something that absorbs a UV but I'm not sure.

By the 3rd year the stitching was coming apart on my drivers seat so they replaced the whole thing under warranty. Now after sitting in the sun you can feel the difference between the drivers and passengers seat. It's a pretty substantial difference but that also means that it wears off after a while.

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[Johnmadd]

I live in an area that is hot from spring until fall and has a few months of cold in the winter. I have a black car with black leather seats and in the cold the heated seats heat up very fast and in the hot months its no worse in my opinion than cloth. When its in the 90's and above your car will obviously be an oven inside and the ac in these cars work well enough to quickly get you cool enough. I have no problems with the leather temps in hot or cold. All of this said, I do have tint 20 in the rear and 35 up front although I honestly dont think that matters if your car sits hours in the sun in a parking lot its gonna be hot as he'll inside anyways.

[brettbimmer]

BP, was there ever an Alpina cloth interior offered for the E46 sedan? Just a thought. (JP, are you up to speed with this, knowing that you are a guru on such oddball BMW trivia questions?) I suppose M hurricane cloth wouldn't look proper in the ZHP either.

As others have said, leather is going to be hotter then cloth, due to the limitations of breathing against your body (unless the car is a newer then the E46 era that has cooled seats). It is definitely colder then cloth in the winter too, though heated seats do help warm it up within a couple of minutes. I love the look of a leather interior, but it is an added level of maintenance to maintain it properly too.

Here's another thought - leather does NOT help keep you planted in the seat on the track. It is actually a PITA...or more specifically a pain in your left knee bracing yourself against your door in my experience. Ending up sliding over into your instructor's lap does not usually gain any points during an HPDE event.

[Hermes]

BP, was there ever an Alpina cloth interior offered for the E46 sedan? Just a thought. (JP, are you up to speed with this, knowing that you are a guru on such oddball BMW trivia questions?)

Hahahaha...

Alpina B3 3.3

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/picture.php?albumid=2543&pictureid=13652

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/picture.php?albumid=2543&pictureid=13657

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/picture.php?albumid=2543&pictureid=13658

...but as you can tell it has those stupid Recaro's with the buttons on the top

Edit: hold on, facelift sedan looks like it came with normal sports seats

http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/attachments/alpinaboard-com-bmw-alpina-discussion/122281d1291891749-my-alpina-b3-3-3-3.jpg

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1785102/DSC_6036.JPG

591 built total, only about 80 were facelift versions

[brettbimmer]

^LOL awesome! Now we just need to find BP one of those 80 cars that is wrecked but otherwise has a perfect interior! Maybe he could trade them for the interior from that rare beast known as an "Alcantara". :shifty :innocent

[az3579]

I'm not too familiar on all BMW leathers, but in reference to the E46, I think that Nappa > Montana.

I disagree. I don't like the feel of Nappa; I prefer the texture of Montana. :dunno


Winter: heated seat retrofit
Summer: 3M Crystalline tint

:-)


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It is my understanding that heated seats (OEM) cannot be retrofitted into an E46. My BMW tech friend says the heating elements are attached to the seat covers, and are inseparable. So, the only ways to retrofit are: 1) buy new seat covers ($$$$$$$$$$) or 2) get aftermarket.


I doubt you have your top up in summer, besides it probably breathes better than my steel top. The leather itself isn't too bad in summer, its the byproduct of an all black interior on a hardtop that your car turns into an oven. It was the same back when I had my E32 with black leather.

[quote]
BP, maybe buy some grey seats and dye them NB?

Dye doesn't work. No way in hell I'd dye seats. :(

[NorCalZman]

It is my understanding that heated seats (OEM) cannot be retrofitted into an E46. My BMW tech friend says the heating elements are attached to the seat covers, and are inseperable. So, the only ways to retrofit are: 1) buy new seat covers ($$$$$$$$$$) or 2) get aftermarket.



another member just did the retrofit. He obtained heating elements from a source in europe and had them installed by an upholstery shop. He then bought a heating retrofit kit from BMW which has all the wiring, etc. and had that installed. Now he has heated seats. I have the heating elements on order from the same person so I will let the mafia know how my experience with this retrofit goes.

[az3579]

another member just did the retrofit. He obtained heating elements from a source in europe and had them installed by an upholstery shop. He then bought a heating retrofit kit from BMW which has all the wiring, etc. and had that installed. Now he has heated seats. I have the heating elements on order from the same person so I will let the mafia know how my experience with this retrofit goes.

Those elements are not OEM BMW. The OEM ones are sewn in. My friend has done hundreds of seat occupancy sensor jobs; he swears they're sewn in.
Whatever this guy bought is not E46 heating elements, it's from somewhere else.

[NorCalZman]

Those elements are not OEM BMW. The OEM ones are sewn in. My friend has done hundreds of seat occupancy sensor jobs; he swears they're sewn in.
Whatever this guy bought is not E46 heating elements, it's from somewhere else.

Funny, the elements are shaped and cut for BMW sports seats and contain the correct style plug to connect to the BMW connectors for the retrofit kit. If they work they work, IMO. I will let you know when they arrive. :-)

[az3579]

Funny, the elements are shaped and cut for BMW sports seats and contain the correct style plug to connect to the BMW connectors for the retrofit kit. If they work they work, IMO. I will let you know when they arrive. :-)

Please do. My biggest concern with aftermarket stuff is whether the THREE heating modes would work just like OEM functionality.

[NorCalZman]

Please do. My biggest concern with aftermarket stuff is whether the THREE heating modes would work just like OEM functionality.

well the seller (in europe) swears these are OEM (X3 sport seats to be exact but they are the same as E46 seats), but whatever right? I will be happy to let everyone know if the 3 step heating works.

[az3579]

well the seller (in europe) swears these are OEM (X3 sport seats to be exact but they are the same as E46 seats), but whatever right? I will be happy to let everyone know if the 3 step heating works.

Could you please link to this kit?

[NorCalZman]

Could you please link to this kit?

The retrofit kit you buy from BMW, but the elements are sold by this seller:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/BMW-Original-NEU-SPORT-Sitzheizung-2x-Satz-E90-E46-E91-E39-E36-X3-X5-3er-5er-7er/291061248719?_trksid=p2050601.m2372&_trkparms=aid%3D111000%26algo%3DREC.CURRENT%26ao%3 D1%26asc%3D207%26meid%3D4239357641109974864%26pid% 3D100085%26prg%3D1112%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D4%26sd%3D29 1061248719%26%26clkid%3D4239358673446876589&_qi=RTM1562569

These are for the E90 and they have the wrong connector for the E46, but if you message him and ask for the first gen X3 sport seat elements which DO, he will send them to you. One of our members already did this. I am waiting for mine to arrive so TO BE SAFE one could wait until we have multiple confirmations that these work ok. I am taking the chance because I want them pretty badly and am willing to risk a few hundred bucks. I was going to wait until my own experience turns out ok before I start sending our other mafia members there.

[danewilson77]

BP... I had to unsecure then move my heating element to the new cover.

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[az3579]

BP... I had to unsecure then move my heating element to the new cover.

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So you're saying the element IS separable?? How is it attached to the cover??
i just sent this info to my friend. We'll see what he says. If this truly is doable, then perhaps it was just dealer propaganda told to the techs so the customers would purchase new seat covers... ? :dunno

[danewilson77]

I'm gonna have to find my thread with all of the pics. I swore I would never do it again.

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[cakM3]

I'm gonna have to find my thread with all of the pics. I swore I would never do it again.

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This is why I haven't done this to my ZHP as of yet.....after reconditioning my ///M driver's seats I was pretty much done working on seats....those hog rings really sucked...

[az3579]

This may just as well not end up happening at all, so at this point who knows what will happen. :dunno
Dependant on a number of factors, mostly out of my control.

It always helps having someone who knows how to do it. It also helps having a shop to do it in. I have just the person for that, and he happens to have tons of experience removing those hog rings. :)

[danewilson77]

Here are the pics I snapped.

You can see that I cut it out of my seat, and installed it into the seat Chuck gave me.

P/N for heating element?
http://i1015.photobucket.com/albums/af278/nicee46/Maintenance%20and%20Misc/IMAG1080.jpg (http://s1015.photobucket.com/user/nicee46/media/Maintenance%20and%20Misc/IMAG1080.jpg.html)

Heating element (You can see where I placed all of the zip-ties)
http://i1015.photobucket.com/albums/af278/nicee46/Maintenance%20and%20Misc/IMAG1078-1.jpg (http://s1015.photobucket.com/user/nicee46/media/Maintenance%20and%20Misc/IMAG1078-1.jpg.html)

http://i1015.photobucket.com/albums/af278/nicee46/Maintenance%20and%20Misc/IMAG1076-1.jpg (http://s1015.photobucket.com/user/nicee46/media/Maintenance%20and%20Misc/IMAG1076-1.jpg.html)

[az3579]

Thanks DeeDub. Always a help.
Was that sewn onto the old seat cover, or how was it attached? How did you re-attach?

[danewilson77]

Yes. Sewn into original cover. Mine is just pinned in with those lateral (vertical in the pic) rods and held in place between the cover and foam. Mine hasn't moved since I did it.

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[az3579]

I'm wondering if perhaps it can be re-sewn to the foam? I'd be willing to do that if it came down to it...

[danewilson77]

It's sewn into the seat cover.

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[az3579]

It's sewn into the seat cover.

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Right, but I mean if it can be sewn to the foam instead. Would not last long enough?
If sewing happens to the seat cover and something gets fawked up, that's a mighty expensive mistake... n'ah mean?

[danewilson77]

No. I do not think sewing it to the foam would work.

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[az3579]

Thanks DW.