Is German Engineering Really Better?

[Fender215]

Guys,

I'm going to throw this out there fully knowing/expecting that it may cause fireworks (or to get no views at all haha) - partly because I fancy a rant but more because I honestly want to hear what others think.

I've always read/heard talk of German reliability being better (or the best) - whether it's from the average guy talking about cars or enthusiasts/other forums. Am I the only one who thinks that is a load of crap? Where does this reliability talk come from? Is it anywhere near true today?

For full disclosure - I love cars and racing but am no way near even being an amateur mechanic - although I would love to do all my own work. Honestly, even if I knew how to I'm not sure I don't want to spend my weekend working on a car vs. driving it (or doing whatever else I want to do). I know that may sound bad, but that's just me. I'm just the average car lover (I don't consider myself a BMW lover) who wonders why German cars appear to be so "finnicky" versus Japanese cars (or now even Korean). I'd also take a Ferrari in a heatbeat no matter how much maintenance it needs!

Anyway, I've had my ZHP for about 1.5yrs so far and absolutely LOVE it and it's actually changed the way I think about all cars. My wife has a 2010 MB. (Note this post isn't coming from any issues I've had with either of those cars - just from what I always read/hear). I also have a '01 Civic which has been my trusty companion since new, taken everything that has been thrown at it (including NYC roads for the last 6 years), and regularly functioned as my old band's "tour van" or even a bloody pickup truck on those Home Depot/Lowes trips.

Which car do I never ever have to even think about, let alone "worry" about, reliability? The Honda.

Every manufacturer has their share of issues (Toyota recalls etc), but overall I strongly believe the Japanese have way more reliable cars. I've never liked some of the arguments I've heard that BMW (or insert other German marque) engineer cars to XYZ or whatever because why can't you design a car that drives well and is reliable? I'm guessing the Toyota/Scion/Subaru BRZ won't have too many issues but sounds like a blast to drive. I understand that the Acura NSX was great and reliable as well.

I also cringe at the ultimate driving machine banter that gets associated with this. Why? Is our ZHP an ultimate driving machine? I'm sure we all agree yes. Are many BMW's? Yes, quite likely, but certainly not all and I won't even start on what I think of any new one I've driven.

All that being said, why the hell should there be so much (what I think of but again I'm not even an amateur mechanic) bull Sh*t maintenance or other issues with the car? I had to research/study the crap out of E46 related issues before I pulled the trigger and just like i did all through college - I crammed, passed, and now have mostly forgotten! I did all that because after 2min behind the wheel of a ZHP (that I totally stumbled upon) - that was it - it was the ZHP and only the ZHP that I wanted.

Take another example, my dad's '01 Lexus LS with well over 100K mi. Absolutely brilliant car, luxurious as hell, and all it needs is a regular oil change at literally any mechanic for less than $40. It's had some very minor maintenance here and there but runs like new. His old one was a '95 with ~150k and just needed tires and oil, period. (Again, this isn't about whether a lexus drives like a bmw - that's just two totally different takes on driving dynamics)

I personally know 4 people who have had BMW's with engines that caught on fire (2), other total engine failure, and a transmission pack up before 100k mi. I have heard loads of other stories as well. These aren't idiots either, they all like their cars and treat them well.

Lastly, I've never had to worry about a stupid window regulator, window pillars that peel, center console plastic that eventually looks like some cheap toy from the 80s if you're not super careful or countless other build quality vs. reliability issues on my other cars. In the end, I'm ok/will deal with it because again, I just love the way ZHP drives. In no way does that mean I shouldn't wonder why? If this was my $40k+ car when new, I'd be well annoyed.

Anyway, enough of my rant - hopefully I didn't anger anyone because that's not my intent. Maybe this is just one of those agree to disagree things. I'm the type of person that gets annoyed when someone scratches my already beat up (through no fault of my own) Honda.

To put it a completely different way, I'm not the type of person who gets the point in wearing a Rolex watch that costs thousands just to have to repair it for a stupidly large sum when it stops working every few years. I'll just wear a "good" brand that only costs a couple hundred dollars, tells me the time (or better yet just look at my phone) and buy 10-20 of them over my life instead!

[gmurphy]

Interesting points. All I'm going to say is that you have to pay to play.


Sent from a Secret Location (Lincoln,NE exit 395 on I-80)

[kayger12]

I've never heard anyone say that German reliability is the best. Engineering for performance/handling and engineering for reliability are two completely different things.

People who want maintenance-free ownership will typically buy Japanese label as they do have a reputation for great reliability. That being said, if a Honda Civic was my weekend fun vehicle I'd be looking for a tall building from which to leap.

People who want a driving experience will typically by European which has a reputation for great driveability and performance (generally).

As a general rule, better reliability equals a more vanilla driving experience and better performance/handling requires more maintenance. This is true whether you're dealing with automobiles, motorcycles, aircraft, or watercraft.

If I needed a long-term reliable commuter that required little maintenance, I'd buy a Honda.

If I want to have a great driving experience I drive something that is engineered to drive/handle better than the average car and accept the increased maintenance as a given.

If you're looking for great reliability with little maintenance BMW shouldn't be on your list. The reality is that driving an E46 these days means you either 1) will need to learn to DIY; or 2) you'll be shelling out lots of money to maintain your vehicle.

[TigerTater]

Hmmm. Interesting post. Not sure why you would come in to a zhp forum and flame the car lol. But you have cojones. We typically don't get into such banter here on the Mafia. We all love our cars and knew (mostly) what we signed up for. I agree that many Japanese cars are maybe more reliable than other brands, but I've seen many bmws with hundreds of thousands of miles still on the road with civics stranded nearby. I think many people here "maintain" preventively so as not to be stranded, I also think we push our cars more than average consumers. Forums are such a small sliver of the overall owning population of a brand, it's not well represented. The reliability is likely much more reputable that one may realize when you venture out of forum world where people go to usually troubleshoot issues. Just my 2¢


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[Pip]

Lots of people drive German cars reliably over time and sell them as junk later. There is a difference...you're on a forum. The mindset here is that you're an enthusiast and want a performance vehicle so if the bushings or suspension go out on the performance car you notice and replace. If the suspension or bushings go out on a civic you probably notice but don't give a shot because it is just supposed to get from point a to point b and not drive like a performance vehicle. You don't have to replace fluids etc in the BMW, but most likely do because you're an enthusiast or care more about the German car than the other car.

[gmurphy]

Lots of people drive German cars reliably over time and sell them as junk later. There is a difference...you're on a forum. The mindset here is that you're an enthusiast and want a performance vehicle so if the bushings or suspension go out on the performance car you notice and replace. If the suspension or bushings go out on a civic you probably notice but don't give a shot because it is just supposed to get from point a to point b and not drive like a performance vehicle. You don't have to replace fluids etc in the BMW, but most likely do because you're an enthusiast or care more about the German car than the other car.

+1
If these cars are taken care of they are as reliable as you want them to be. I am at 123,000 miles because of this. If you buy a car and do nothing but oil changes (IE. A civic) then you probably won't notice when things start breaking. On the inside for example, you will notice little things right away on a BMW that may be 100 times worse on your other car but since the other car is just a way to get around you won't care.


Sent from a Secret Location (Lincoln,NE exit 395 on I-80)

[mbeckel]

I've never heard anyone say that German reliability is the best. Engineering for performance/handling and engineering for reliability are two completely different things.

People who want maintenance-free ownership will typically buy Japanese label as they do have a reputation for great reliability. That being said, if a Honda Civic was my weekend fun vehicle I'd be looking for a tall building from which to leap.

People who want a driving experience will typically by European which has a reputation for great driveability and performance (generally).

As a general rule, better reliability equals a more vanilla driving experience and better performance/handling requires more maintenance. This is true whether you're dealing with automobiles, motorcycles, aircraft, or watercraft.

If I needed a long-term reliable commuter that required little maintenance, I'd buy a Honda.

If I want to have a great driving experience I drive something that is engineered to drive/handle better than the average car and accept the increased maintenance as a given.

If you're looking for great reliability with little maintenance BMW shouldn't be on your list. The reality is that driving an E46 these days means you either 1) will need to learn to DIY; or 2) you'll be shelling out lots of money to maintain your vehicle.

Very nicely put, I have my zhp for my fun car and a civic for my dd. The civic requires a lot less attention to detail because of its engineering, I have done way more work (probably a 4 to 1 ratio) on my zhp because it requires it. And it's simply because the bmw has far superior quality and performance

Sent from in the bushes

[johnrando]

I've never heard anyone say that German reliability is the best. Engineering for performance/handling and engineering for reliability are two completely different things.

People who want maintenance-free ownership will typically buy Japanese label as they do have a reputation for great reliability. That being said, if a Honda Civic was my weekend fun vehicle I'd be looking for a tall building from which to leap.

People who want a driving experience will typically by European which has a reputation for great driveability and performance (generally).

As a general rule, better reliability equals a more vanilla driving experience and better performance/handling requires more maintenance. This is true whether you're dealing with automobiles, motorcycles, aircraft, or watercraft.

If I needed a long-term reliable commuter that required little maintenance, I'd buy a Honda.

If I want to have a great driving experience I drive something that is engineered to drive/handle better than the average car and accept the increased maintenance as a given.

If you're looking for great reliability with little maintenance BMW shouldn't be on your list. The reality is that driving an E46 these days means you either 1) will need to learn to DIY; or 2) you'll be shelling out lots of money to maintain your vehicle.

Definitely well said. Certainly part of that reputation came from how well the overall car was built too. Past BMWs and Mercedes, while leading the CAR technology charge, did not have many of the creature comforts. They were solidly built, sparse cars, there to perform a function. Less bells and whistles, less things to break, more focus on the car/driver. While other manufacturers have caught up wit that (and German cars caught up on the bells and whistles), try taking an 80s or earlier American or Japanese car, and closing the door. Then try a German car. Big difference in how solidly they are built. That reputation has carried forward.

PS Nothing wrong with asking that question BTW. Good discussion.

[Fender215]

Well this blows. I wrote a whole response to this and then accidentally closed my browser!

All of us here get it, we own the car, love the car, and we "accept" the stuff that goes along with it. My point wasn't about this car in particular (or even just cars) and was actually to question why the hell should I accept that "you have to pay to play" in general?

I'll bring it back to cars for another example, i'll pick on BMW again. I was in my managers X5 a few months ago, we went to check the oil and realized that you have to do it through the stupid menu system. 5, 10, 15 minutes go by and it refuses to give a reading. We gave up, he didn't care because the car is leased. Why'd you over-engineer something so bloody simple when there was no need to?

Another example...and gets us away from German vs. Japanese and just onto the question of What is Good Reliability/Engineering? Take the Tesla Model S (love that car too, I think it's fantastic) but why did you decide that pop out door handles were a good idea? I don't care that it made the car X% more aerodynamic, or that it looks cool. Fact is, if I owned one, I would just wonder when it will stop working and then prevent me from getting into the car.

I'll shutup now.

[Fender215]

Actually I won't shuttup haha - because I saw a few new posts.

To the point "I have done way more work (probably a 4 to 1 ratio) on my zhp because it requires it. And it's simply because the bmw has far superior quality and performance"

I think through this I'm refining my original question completely to ask: WHAT IS GOOD/SUPERIOR QUALITY?

I actually don't consider that to be good quality. If it was good quality, it wouldn't have needed that in the first place. I'd actually consider my dd Civic better quality (yes, seriously!) I'm questioning our entire attitude to things.

You guys can now probably tell I have way too black/white view of things. There is no gray.

[E_Rak]

I think part of your issue here is a misunderstanding of "German" engineering. Nobody ever, ever pretended that German manufactured or designed cars were more reliable than their Japanese counterparts. Barring some crazy stuff like four wheel steering Preludes, or rotary rx8's that implode, Japanese cars are bulletproof, reasonably easy to fix/maintain, and the parts come super cheap.

The part of German engineering that I typically see is their attention to detail. Manufacturers feel the need to uniquely design more parts in each car. Some get over-engineered. Some under. German cars aren't made for the mass market in the way that Japanese or American ones are. That's why they are able to drive and feel so much more quality and driver oriented than "cattle" cars like Corollas and Civics.

All this extra engineering makes the cars more expensive. What do performance oriented, expensive cars all share? More frequent maintenance, and more expensive parts than your average commuter.

I will admit that BMW does overlook some items that shouldn't be an issue. Window regulars for example (although this not BMW exclusive), sunroof shade fittings, more plastics in the engine bay, and pillar fabric that won't stay connected.

But here is where I see a difference. You will notice broken stuff more in an E46 than in your Civic. Rear deck faded on the Civic? No big deal. Sunroof shade off the track? Barely use it anyway. Coolant reservoir sprung a leak? Probably an easy fix.

I think the E46 is a great car. I've had my touring for about 30,000 miles and 2 years. I have never been left on the side of the road. I've never been stuck in my driveway, even in cold starts down to -15 degrees. The engineering is good, and it is German, with all the quirks and little issues that come along with that.

To be honest, the car is extremely easy to work on. The engine bay is accessible and parts are abundant, albeit a tad on the pricey side. And if you keep up on maintenance and fix issues as they arise, you won't find yourself in a deep hole looking at a new engine or transmission.

It's just all about the tradeoff that you have to make when purchasing a car like this. To me, the driving and ownership is experience is well worth having to put in a few hours at the shop, and working on the car is actually an enjoyable part of my ownership experience.

[Hermes]

I also cringe at the ultimate driving machine banter that gets associated with this. Why? Is our ZHP an ultimate driving machine?

No, that title belongs to the 328MM. It became a marketing term and is used for the whole brand, but to honestly answer the question it belongs to a prewar car

http://www.seriouswheels.com/pics-1940-1949/1940-BMW-328-at-Mille-Miglia-Roadsters-1280x960.jpg

[Avetiso]

If German cars were as reliable as Japanese cars and still retained their great driving characteristics, they would cost too much for you to afford. That would be the case for most of us, probably. Give and take. Can't have both.

"Arnold smoking a cigar in the Red Square; your argument is invalid." -Galaxy S5

[johnrando]

How about this: I agree with you that they could have definitely done better on a list of things on E46s that they missed on. Still a great car though.

[RITmusic2k]

Heya Fender,

I think the whole discussion really boils down to an understanding of what we take "good engineering" to mean. I strongly believe that engineering doesn't directly translate to "build quality"; it's more a measure of how successfully a design satisfies a design goal. In that sense, I could say that a 1970 Chevy truck is well engineered if your design parameters are to create a truck that will be able to run poorly forever.

And that's why we see a trade-off. The materials we have to work with aren't perfect, so you have to pick a point on the spectrum between designing parts that will run at incredibly tight tolerances for a short time and parts that will run at generous tolerances for a long time. A car designed to satisfy the former goal will drive like a fine precision instrument. But it's like a perfectly spherical ball balanced at the top of a very sharp peak... even the slightest drift off center and the thing will tumble down... so it takes frequent and delicate nudging to stay on that peak. At the other end of the spectrum is a wood block on flat ground. Unlike the precision instrument, it's quick and dirty and not likely to drop off. It will work poorly forever.

So which one was better engineered? If both had the same design goal, then the precision instrument was better engineered. If they had opposing goals, then the precision instrument would be terribly designed for the other's objectives. It's all relative.

In the case of German cars specifically, all the talk you've ever heard about it was in regard to driving performance. This is much more a case of the precision instrument which carries the baggage of expensive and delicate maintenance.

[TigerTater]

And that's why we see a trade-off. The materials we have to work with aren't perfect, so you have to pick a point on the spectrum between designing parts that will run at incredibly tight tolerances for a short time and parts that will run at generous tolerances for a long time. A car designed to satisfy the former goal will drive like a fine precision instrument. But it's like a perfectly spherical ball balanced at the top of a very sharp peak... even the slightest drift off center and the thing will tumble down... so it takes frequent and delicate nudging to stay on that peak. At the other end of the spectrum is a wood block on flat ground. Unlike the precision instrument, it's quick and dirty and not likely to drop off. It will work poorly forever.


In the case of German cars specifically, all the talk you've ever heard about it was in regard to driving performance. This is much more a case of the precision instrument which carries the baggage of expensive and delicate maintenance.

I love the ball/block analogy... great representation. +1

[SoDelBMW]

I've never heard anyone say that German reliability is the best. Engineering for performance/handling and engineering for reliability are two completely different things.

People who want maintenance-free ownership will typically buy Japanese label as they do have a reputation for great reliability. That being said, if a Honda Civic was my weekend fun vehicle I'd be looking for a tall building from which to leap.

People who want a driving experience will typically by European which has a reputation for great driveability and performance (generally).

As a general rule, better reliability equals a more vanilla driving experience and better performance/handling requires more maintenance. This is true whether you're dealing with automobiles, motorcycles, aircraft, or watercraft.

If I needed a long-term reliable commuter that required little maintenance, I'd buy a Honda.

If I want to have a great driving experience I drive something that is engineered to drive/handle better than the average car and accept the increased maintenance as a given.

If you're looking for great reliability with little maintenance BMW shouldn't be on your list. The reality is that driving an E46 these days means you either 1) will need to learn to DIY; or 2) you'll be shelling out lots of money to maintain your vehicle.

I like the way you put this as everyone else said but from just a couple of months ago when I bought this car there was about a 5:1 ratio of people telling me to back away from a BMW and how they were unreliable. My mother even called them the BM Trouble you because she hates them so much but I still pursued and bought the car and am enjoying every second of the time behind the wheel. There is definitely a trade off like everyone else said but it really depends on your personality not only to cars but your attitude and determination generally in life. My parents told me that I was either going to break my bank with this car or I'm going to DIY, I chose DIY and am in the process learning everything I can about this car. It all boils down to your opinions not others.

[NoVAphotog]

I like the way you put this as everyone else said but from just a couple of months ago when I bought this car there was about a 5:1 ratio of people telling me to back away from a BMW and how they were unreliable. My mother even called them the BM Trouble you because she hates them so much but I still pursued and bought the car and am enjoying every second of the time behind the wheel. There is definitely a trade off like everyone else said but it really depends on your personality not only to cars but your attitude and determination generally in life. My parents told me that I was either going to break my bank with this car or I'm going to DIY, I chose DIY and am in the process learning everything I can about this car. It all boils down to your opinions not others.

You and I sound like we were in the same boat. The majority of my car enthusiast friend group advised me against a "9-10 year old BMW" citing the exact same reasons as seen in this thread. I think my previous car was a perfect example of a lot of what others have said and I have come to realize. I drove a '07 Mazdaspeed3 before my ZHP and I really did enjoy it. That said, it was up there in mileage and that car had a number of big ticket items that could go and be just as expensive as items on E46's..e.g. the turbo.

I was also looking into some basic modifications for the car as well, until one day I brought it up with my dad and he exclaimed "I would never spend any money on that car." I asked him why, and in so many words basically said "it wasn't worth it." I agreed with my dad that it was lost in the land between performance car and econobox and I didn't think the increased cost of the performance elements were worth it.

Thus, I began looking at cars it would worth spending the money on, EVEN IF the parts ended up being more expensive I didn't care, I began budgeting and reading and learning and continue to do so, I've spent more time learning about my ZHP/E46's than I ever have with my previous Swedish (volvo) and Japanese (mitsu/mazda) cars. I have finally found a car that I have a connection with whereas the others I just drove...thus evident in naming her...I never could come up with names for my other cars...I wonder why?

I've since purchased a jack and jackstands, as well as begun building my own tool sets, maintenance/detailing supplies, etc. To me, working on the car myself or learning from another enthusiast or even taking it to a high quality shop means something because I want to ensure I continue to have the awesome driving experience (and let's not forget looks...I mean...damn!) this car offers.

I think it's a paradox. Reliability brings with it a type of boredom, in my opinion, which led to little/no connection between my previous vehicles and myself. My ZHP, while having to keep an eye on certain elements, offers great driving dynamics as a tradeoff that is worth it to me. Also, those elements, while potentially problematic provide an intimate experience (a watchful eye, if you will) that just is not present on more "reliable" cars.

[NoVAphotog]

In other words...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYco0UsWhLc

[Simmsled]

...I think it's a paradox. Reliability brings with it a type of boredom, in my opinion, which led to little/no connection between my previous vehicles and myself. My ZHP, while having to keep an eye on certain elements, offers great driving dynamics as a tradeoff that is worth it to me. Also, those elements, while potentially problematic provide an intimate experience (a watchful eye, if you will) that just is not present on more "reliable" cars.

Hit the nail on the head.
I have been trying to put this phenomenon to words for YEARS.
Thank you.

[Fender215]

Great points guys. I'll leave by saying that my whole argument is thrown bc just last week I proclaimed at dinner that I want the ZHP to be buried with me! Or at least keep it for as long as I feasibly can.

Cheers - looking fwd to my Bear Mountain drive this wknd!


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[Tnhl1989]

This whole thread reminds me of the other threads from E46F. One talking about the products that are made in China (Meyle Rotors, Made in CHINA??? (http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=961430) and the other is Made in USA still quality. (http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=1013326&highlight=made+in+usa) We all are enthusiasts and we take care of our cars more than your typical BMW owner I would say. Plus we do help each other more than majority of the other forums that I know of.

To add to the conversation I would say that engineering is really what are the goals of the product that is being produce. German made is really just a term of over engineered, fun, and awesome products. While many other companies focus on different goals. i.e. economic, mass produce, and possibly not as fun.

[az3579]

I simply couldn't have said any of these points better myself.

In the end, it all comes down to:
Fast, cheap, reliable. Pick two. :)


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[alexandre]

I simply couldn't have said any of these points better myself.

In the end, it all comes down to:
Fast, cheap, reliable. Pick two. :)


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What's fast and reliable? V10 Avalon? :shifty

[Tnhl1989]

Lotus?

[E_Rak]

Fast, reliable and cheap: V6 Mustang.

[illirep]

I just read something relevant to this topic. Paraphrasing: to achieve the handling and driving dynamics, certain (lightweight / aluminum?) materials must be used for the control arms as an example, versus a more durable but heavier metal such as steel or iron. Same thing on the bushings - a longer lasting material could certainly have been used, but it wouldn't perform as good. Some cars are engineered for performance, and some for low maintenance commuting.

If you were to compare an s2000 and a civic, or even better, a civic si with sport tuned suspension and higher revving engine versus a civic lx, I think you would have very different experiences in maintenance needs and reliability.

I'd make the same argument between a 2005 325i non sport and a 2005 330i zhp. The suspension on the former will probably last longer than the latter.

[az3579]

Fast, reliable and cheap: V6 Mustang.

It's a Ford... lol


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[3ZHP]

Yes it is: over the years I've owned 31 different cars and trucks and worked on all of them and more. That included 11 Fords, 6 Chevy's, 4 Pontiac's, 4 BMW's, 2 Toyota's 2 Datsun's and 1 Chrysler that I never paid for. With all these and turning wrench for a living for ten plus years, I can honestly sat they are engineered better. Our cars are very complex and sometimes a real PITA to get things apart but, it comes apart and rarely needs persuasion with a BFH. And, it all goes back together in the same form as it was removed. When it complete it is as good or better than new. I can't say that about any other brand I've ever worked on. Yeh, issues and problems on other brands can be fixed but, they are never as good as new.


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[Avetiso]

It's a Ford... lol


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I've never had a problem with our Fords. 275k on one SUV and 180k on a Taurus. They are far more reliable than our BMWs that's for sure.

"Arnold smoking a cigar in the Red Square; your argument is invalid." -Galaxy S5

[BCS_ZHP]

My feeling, that Cadillac commercial from a couple of years ago sums it up -- "when you turn your car on, does it return the favor?"

The ZHP definitely does! And because of that we're willing to deal with it's idiosyncrasies which reward us with good performance.

[QC_ZHP]

Wow, I like that. lol

[E_Rak]

http://dougdemuro.jalopnik.com/german-reliability-the-greatest-myth-ever-sold-to-amer-1572026115/+zacestrada

[midlandtech]

http://dougdemuro.jalopnik.com/german-reliability-the-greatest-myth-ever-sold-to-amer-1572026115/+zacestrada

His definition of unbiased and my definition of unbiased are very different

taptalk + Note 3

[Avetiso]

His definition of unbiased and my definition of unbiased are very different

taptalk + Note 3

+1

"Arnold smoking a cigar in the Red Square; your argument is invalid." -Galaxy S5

[HockeyGoon]

His definition of unbiased and my definition of unbiased are very different

taptalk + Note 3

+2 after reading that , it kind of made it out to where he was totally against German cars. I personally think it'd up to personal preference and it's up to you what you think is a better one .

[SoCalZman]

Too bad he rags on German cars. I really enjoy reading Doug Demuro columns. Was thinking of getting his books too.

Funny he says these things considering he owns a Ferrari and a land rover. No room to talk really. Haha.


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[johnrando]

Yup, he overdoes it, but interesting he said some of the same things I did. They used to be rock solid tanks, so the reputation was well deserved. Over the years that's changed, with all the bells and whistles. Doesn't mean they aren't well engineered, but it has diluted the quality some. More things = more chances something breaks.

[RITmusic2k]

So, Doug's article was clearly hyperbolic (and a pretty funny read, to be honest), but I think it does call attention to the point that Fender originally brought up. The general public seems to have conflated the concepts of performance engineering and reliability. I hadn't realized this... but as the article proves, there are enough other people out there who think the same thing...

[prowlerflyer]

I think in all, it spins a spirited discussion. I do feel there is some confusion between engineering and reliability (not necessarily mutually inclusive) with a lot of people, and I (and really just my opinion) feel the notion of Japanese reliability is a bit overblown. In the case of both German and Japanese cars they each have had their fair share of peaks and valleys as far as reliability.

The Japanese did develop well-earned reputation of reliability over several decades of from the '70-'90s. For the most part though, and I feel is crucial, they were engineering cars as basic tools, providing basic capability, and thus easier to make reliable.

With the exception of VW during '50-'80s, German cars were not targeting just being reliable, they had to be solid, sophisticated, offer toys, high quality materials, be fast, have better than average brakes, etc. (and view these in comparison in their respective era).

I would lobby that the big juncture where definitely the Germans stumbled was the late '90s as the Japanese entered the luxury market. While the Germans could still offer the high quality materials and other performance items, the large influx of toys the Japanese cars offered, I think pushed the Germans into too rapid a pace of development.

That all being said, some of perception can be written off to ownership. I have never owned a unreliable German car. I write that off to maintenance. I, as most all here, maintain our cars to the level that surprises are rare. One could argue the "classic" German car owner, before leasing let anyone buy very expensive cars, maintained their car to a higher than average standard. Should that be necessary? Should every car go the route of lifetime fluids and be disposable beyond 150k mi? Whoa, where did that soapbox come from... I digress.

I have only owned a couple of Japanese cars and for as good as a tool as they were, I never found a soul in them. That was even the case of the track cars I wrenched on for years; Starion, Supra, Mirage, & FX16.

Now on the opposite side of the scale, you have Alfas. Alfas will be the death of me. They are not the fastest, build quality is all over, same with reliability, but damm if I wasn't smiling every time I drove one.

British cars defy all logic. Engineering; lever shocks, sliding pillar suspension, weather sealing and rust prevention (or lack of) from the country that is wet all the time, Whitworth bolts, etc., seemingly always a decade behind, although I loved the simplicty of my GT6.

[RITmusic2k]

Well said, prowler!

[az3579]

I've never had a problem with our Fords. 275k on one SUV and 180k on a Taurus. They are far more reliable than our BMWs that's for sure.

"Arnold smoking a cigar in the Red Square; your argument is invalid." -Galaxy S5


Yes it is: over the years I've owned 31 different cars and trucks and worked on all of them and more. That included 11 Fords, 6 Chevy's, 4 Pontiac's, 4 BMW's, 2 Toyota's 2 Datsun's and 1 Chrysler that I never paid for. With all these and turning wrench for a living for ten plus years, I can honestly sat they are engineered better. Our cars are very complex and sometimes a real PITA to get things apart but, it comes apart and rarely needs persuasion with a BFH. And, it all goes back together in the same form as it was removed. When it complete it is as good or better than new. I can't say that about any other brand I've ever worked on. Yeh, issues and problems on other brands can be fixed but, they are never as good as new.


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What Steve (prowlerflyer) said is spot on: there is a difference between reliability and engineering.

Since the subject of the thread is engineering, I can safely say that Ford doesn't put nearly as much engineering into their cars as BMW does. The amount of painstaking work that goes into something as simple as that stupid iDrive gong that was in the E9x generation of cars with iDrive is mind blowing. Ford would've just said "yeah, that sounds good" and left it, while BMW actually spent lots of time coming up with the sound they thought would sound the best. While I don't agree that they should've spent all that time on the gong, it still shows, and is way nicer than any American product. This is just one example; there are countless other areas on the cars that BMW spends tons of time engineering, some of which is overkill, but is still noticeable.

Reliability is an entirely different story.

[Avetiso]

What Steve (prowlerflyer) said is spot on: there is a difference between reliability and engineering.

Since the subject of the thread is engineering, I can safely say that Ford doesn't put nearly as much engineering into their cars as BMW does.

Agreed. For sure.

But I still think the "Found on road dead" is a myth.

"Arnold smoking a cigar in the Red Square; your argument is invalid." -Galaxy S5

[az3579]

I've never had a problem with our Fords. 275k on one SUV and 180k on a Taurus. They are far more reliable than our BMWs that's for sure.

"Arnold smoking a cigar in the Red Square; your argument is invalid." -Galaxy S5


Yes it is: over the years I've owned 31 different cars and trucks and worked on all of them and more. That included 11 Fords, 6 Chevy's, 4 Pontiac's, 4 BMW's, 2 Toyota's 2 Datsun's and 1 Chrysler that I never paid for. With all these and turning wrench for a living for ten plus years, I can honestly sat they are engineered better. Our cars are very complex and sometimes a real PITA to get things apart but, it comes apart and rarely needs persuasion with a BFH. And, it all goes back together in the same form as it was removed. When it complete it is as good or better than new. I can't say that about any other brand I've ever worked on. Yeh, issues and problems on other brands can be fixed but, they are never as good as new.


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Agreed. For sure.

But I still think the "Found on road dead" is a myth.

"Arnold smoking a cigar in the Red Square; your argument is invalid." -Galaxy S5

Maybe there was truth to it with some older models but today's Fords are rock solid cars, and the amount of quality in them and "engineering" in that regard have gone up significantly as well. I love the amount of work that was put into the next gen Ford F150. I highly respect Ford now, whereas I had no respect for them 5 years ago.

[johnrando]

Maybe there was truth to it with some older models but today's Fords are rock solid cars, and the amount of quality in them and "engineering" in that regard have gone up significantly as well. I love the amount of work that was put into the next gen Ford F150. I highly respect Ford now, whereas I had no respect for them 5 years ago.

You should have seen the crap they put out in the late '70s and '80s.

[az3579]

You should have seen the crap they put out in the late '70s and '80s.

Precisely why I never had respect for them back then, because I knew that their existing lineup at the time and in the past were just not quite where they should have been and felt that they weren't really trying hard enough.

The amount of engineering and quality has gone up significantly in recent years in all American cars, and I think that's attributed to 1) stiffer competition (look at those Hyundai's and Kia's now compared to 10 years ago!), and 2) harsher government requirements for fuel economy and "safety" items. Personally I'm glad they're finally getting back to being competitive because quite frankly, I'm not liking the direction BMW is taking with some of their future plans.

That Caddy ATS is looking like a mighty fine contender for the BMW 3 series. It's only a matter of time before the Americans become good enough to surpass the Germans (in certain cases have pretty much tied or maybe even surpassed a little bit) overall.


Regarding BMW, they tend to overengineer things sometimes, which ultimately causes them to not foresee the results of this overengineering. Let's take the pillar trim fabric as an example for our E46's. They all peel eventually. Well, the fabric is nice because it has a nicer feel and look than standard hard plastic that most makes were using. Unfortunately, they couldn't have seen the effects of it until the car was quite a bit older while testing. Same goes for window regulators; perhaps they just happened to not have any issues with their test cars. ZKW's? That becomes a problem years after the warranty expires most of the time. The performance of these items is excellent when the items are new, but when worn, they can be a biotch to deal with. I guess this can be said about any car that is of a higher "caliber" per se, such as having an M3 and having to deal with the higher maintenance costs. It is what it is due to the engineering. You can't always foresee every possible outcome.

[prowlerflyer]

You should have seen the crap they put out in the late '70s and '80s.

Although you could say all American cars in period were pretty bad.

One could argue that all cars were pretty bad then. The Japanese countered it with simplicity and no frills, devoting extra effort to reliability. The Germans, unable to abandon their levels if refinement and performance, sought out exotic engineering solutions. While they worked, were of questionable reliability (thermal reactors anyone).

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[3ZHP]

Maybe there was truth to it with some older models but today's Fords are rock solid cars, and the amount of quality in them and "engineering" in that regard have gone up significantly as well. I love the amount of work that was put into the next gen Ford F150. I highly respect Ford now, whereas I had no respect for them 5 years ago.

That F150 may be better today but, I still believe my 2013 Tacoma Off Road will leave it behind having the E-locker hill decent and much more. :)

[pfr]

Engineering vs. reliability:
The NASA space program spent $1M on developing a ballpoint pen that would work in space.
The Russians used pencils.

- Peter