No love for ZHP coupes?

[Bird-Dog]

I get that ZHP sedans offer something that couldn't be had any other way with e46's and ZHP convertibles are a sensible DD alternative to M3 vert's. But why no love for ZHP coupes?

The numbers I've seen indicate ZHP coupes are by far the rarest of the breed (and across-the-board for all e46's), well behind sedans and convertibles in production numbers. Perhaps that's precisely why I see so few talked about here... or maybe not (???). But, it seems to me the relatively low production numbers should make ZHP coupes highly desirable.

The main reason I ask is that I'm shopping for a coupe for my 17 y/o son. I'd expected to have to settle for a base 330Ci due to our budget (max $8,500). Well, I've found an 04 ZHP with ~120K miles we can pick up for $6,500 (and expecting to put at least $1K into repairs & preventative maintenance before we even put it on the road). Looks like a steal to me. Did we just get lucky, or is the market for ZHP coupes that far depressed from the other body styles?

[Smilez]

Nobody likes coupes. Haha jk. You right though. I see more zhp sedans than I do coupes. $6,500 is a good deal. Long as the pre inspection checks out, should be a good ride for your son.

[LivesNearCostco]

I think some of the people who would buy ZHP coupes buy the E46 M3 instead, which was only available as a coupe (or vert).

[Bird-Dog]

I think some of the people who would buy ZHP coupes buy the E46 M3 instead, which was only available as a coupe (or vert).
This is certainly true, but there's still a lot of enthusiasm for ZHP verts (mine included!). Essentially, verts would appear to face the same juxtaposition, though the mitigating factor may be more a matter of convertibles offering less in terms of maximum handling than their coupe counterparts, particularly with regard to M3's, and therefore, selected more for DD than all-out performance.

[fredo]

In my case, I prefer sedans for the 2 extra doors convenience. My boy is almost 4 years old and that is a big factor for me. I have a Mini Cooper and it has become my weekend car for that reason.

When it's time to replace the Mini, I will be happy to consider a ZHP coupe, as long as it's IR. :biggrin

[johnrando]

Not sure about the coupe numbers, but the ZHP was originally intended to be the 4 door version of the M3-lite. So, extrapolating, BMW likely produced more sedans (and maybe verts but that doesn't really make sense). They probably figured (or hoped) if you wanted a performance coupe, then you'd go to an M3. Just conjecture on my part.

[Hermes]

Every car I own is a coupe, and one of them even is a true coupe (no B-pillar)

[sillieidiot]

it's because the coupes cost slightly more than the sedans when it was available. plus sedan is more practical. I don't think the zhp is supposed to be the m3-lite lol i'm pretty sure we got that cause all the other countries got special versions of the 330 and we didn't.

[Bird-Dog]

Not sure about the coupe numbers, but the ZHP was originally intended to be the 4 door version of the M3-lite. So, extrapolating, BMW likely produced more sedans (and maybe verts but that doesn't really make sense). They probably figured (or hoped) if you wanted a performance coupe, then you'd go to an M3. Just conjecture on my part.
Not to be argumentative, but these were in production long enough that production numbers weren't just based on guesses. The market dictated. But, you'd be right either way... up to a point. And that point revolves heavily around price differences. Consider that sticker prices for the M3 when new ran... what?... $10K to $15K higher?

Furthermore, though I know 3-series sedans have been hugely successful, the line's lineage, the 3-series DNA, was originally based on selling coupes (all the way back to, and including the 2002 that put BMW on the map).

Still, the question remains, are current ZHP coupe resale values typically expected to be lower than sedans and convertibles?

[sillieidiot]

no, they are usually higher than sedans for all car makes, not just bmw. verts (except hard tops) are usually about the same as coupes.

[KevinC]

In late 2005, I was earning piles of money and realized that a new E46 M3 was well within my reach. But when I started shopping them and quickly realized that I was looking at northward of $60k for one with a few essential options, I balked. The E90 sedan had just come out, so I looked into it and decided it was a much more economical way to get into a nice BMW, and factory-ordered one equipped exactly as I wanted. What I did NOT know at the time was the existence of the ZHP coupe, which was still available for almost another full year. Not sure I would have gone that route as the brand new-ness of the E90 was enticing (the new Logic7 sound system was orders of magnitude better than the crappy H/K setup in the E46, for example), but I'm guessing that I would have. I've always been coupe-hatchback guy, with exactly 2 of my 25 or so cars owned in my lifetime having more than 2 doors (and exactly none at this point having an automatic transmission, a streak I will continue to keep intact).

2 years ago I came full circle and fell for the ZHP, and was able to find the perfect example within a month of starting my search. It wasn't cheap, and I had to schlep it across the country from Florida, but it has been well worth it. With another S54-equipped car already in the garage, it's the perfect daily driver companion - no need for an M3 in my case, the ZHP is perfection for my needs.

[az3579]

There have always been more 3 series sedans than coupes/convertibles. This is not any different than 3 series' in the past. People tend to shy away from the higher pricing of the coupes and convertibles and end up buying the sedan instead. Plus, most people who buy a basic 3 series get the sedan because it's cheaper and has more doors, which is more practical.

Those that have performance models get sedan/coupe/convertible based on preference and not as much price. With the ZHP, the ratios probably aren't any different than regular 3 series purchases. There are probably more sedans because they're more practical, and people that spend this kind of money on a car want one that does more to get more for their money as well as have the same performance of their 2 door counterparts.

[Washburn]

Sedans are more practical only for those who NEED that practicality.
As we have no kids (never will) and to me personally almost all coupes in general look better/sportier, (This is a personal opinion), and would like my car to have a more personal, and less people-hauling feeling, in my case the COUPE is more practical to ME. (because it doesn't have what I try to avoid, and does have what I want). If we do need to carry people we still CAN, with some hindrances. AND we do have my wife's Mazda6 which is 4-door.
To me, coupes just have a built-in more exclusive/personal/driver's car feeling that sedans will never have. (again, this is subjective). If coupes are built less often, hey that's great - i'd rather drive something that's less common.

So I think it's important that we clarify that "practicality" is very specific and cannot be used as a general advantage just because a car has 4 doors.
For some, the OPPOSITE is practical because they want to AVOID 4 doors. just my H.O.

...Oh and i LOVE the pass through ski-bag, which I have used in more occasions that I ever thought I would.
I also like the fact that (I think) ZHP coupes came with clear corners from factory. (at least in some years?) and that non- 330Ci coupes always had the Sport Package as standard ...

(I think it was/is like this with even OTHER brands. Coupes are always better equipped or have better cosmetic pieces thats sedan owners normally lust after. An example is the last gen. Acura Legend coupe vs sedan. Coupe looked loads better and had better lights/corner lights and sedan owners that I know ALWAYS got those changed for the coupe corners or turn signals, etc.
That's probably why the coupes are almost always more expensive.)

SO, idk - no love for coupes? mine gets a LOT of it, for sure :)

[Bird-Dog]

Looks like it'll be tomorrow before I an get the PPI done. I'm doing this at arms length at this point in negotiations and relying on others to get the car to the mechanic... car is in another state.

Fingers crossed, I'm hoping they don't find too many problems, of course.

I know already the control arm bushings are shot. The guy at the lot claims he can get just the bushings changed out (not the whole CA's) for $200, which is contrary to everything I think I know about it (had new CA's installed on my vert last year). Anyway, he said he'd either get it done or knock that amount off. So, we're down to $6,300 now. I don't think I'll be able to talk him into covering new CA's, so the difference would be out-of-pocket. I think I know the answer already, but here goes anyway... Anyone had bushing replaced without changing out the control arms?

I think I'm almost more excited about the prospect of getting the kid a ZHP than I was when getting mine. Probably because I thought it would be out-of-reach for him, while I knew going into mine I was willing to pay near top-dollar to get exactly what I wanted. Only problem is, he'll be driving a year newer than mine... I mistakenly said 04 above (as is my vert), but it's actually an 05 coupe we're looking at for him.

[Washburn]

Still, the question remains, are current ZHP coupe resale values typically expected to be lower than sedans and convertibles?
No, coupes of the same model are almost always higher priced than sedans.

[Vas]

I prefer the sedans over the coupes/verts. Personally if I had a coupe, the itch for an M3 would always be there. With the sedan, its not there since it was not offered.

[ELCID86]

Hope it checks out. PPI is a great idea.


Thumbs, iPhone, Tapatalk.

[johnrando]

it's because the coupes cost slightly more than the sedans when it was available. plus sedan is more practical. I don't think the zhp is supposed to be the m3-lite lol i'm pretty sure we got that cause all the other countries got special versions of the 330 and we didn't.
BMW said it themselves. They wanted a higher performance sedan and to extend the life of the E46 platform. Thus was born the ZHP. So yes, M3-lite in a sedan version.

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[az3579]

I don't think I'll be able to talk him into covering new CA's, so the difference would be out-of-pocket. I think I know the answer already, but here goes anyway... Anyone had bushing replaced without changing out the control arms?

Absolutely. Control Arm Bushings can be replaced independently of the control arms. In fact, they're designed like that on purpose.
I think it's ball joints you're thinking of, which cannot be replaced independently, and require a full control arm.

[Bird-Dog]

Absolutely. Control Arm Bushings can be replaced independently of the control arms. In fact, they're designed like that on purpose.
I think it's ball joints you're thinking of, which cannot be replaced independently, and require a full control arm.
Gotcha. Thanks!

I have a feeling the ball joints are what he meant.

[az3579]

Gotcha. Thanks!

I have a feeling the ball joints are what he meant.

If that's what he meant, there's no way he's replacing them...

[kayger12]

There was certainly no depressed market for coupes when I overpaid for mine...

[Romulan]

Ditto Washburn. 4 door does not scream sports car to me. It's like an extra 20 seconds to put your seats forward for back passengers anyways. Not a huge inconvenience

Coupes are better for picking up bitches anyway. :D

[ELCID86]

Ditto Washburn. 4 door does not scream sports car to me. It's like an extra 20 seconds to put your seats forward for back passengers anyways. Not a huge inconvenience

Coupes are better for picking up bitches anyway. :D

Are you into dog rescue?


Thumbs, iPhone, Tapatalk.

[Romulan]

Are you into dog rescue?


Thumbs, iPhone, Tapatalk.

Haha! Let me rephrase: Most chicks find coupes more attractive. That is not my opinion

[az3579]

Haha! Let me rephrase: Most chicks find BMWs more attractive. That is not my opinion

Fixed. The type of BMW doesn't seem to matter anymore.

[danewilson77]

Haha! Let me rephrase: Most chicks find coupes more attractive. That is not my opinion


Are you into dog rescue?


Thumbs, iPhone, Tapatalk.
Thanks for NOT disrespecting our female members.

A good rule of thumb around here is if you wouldn't say it in front of your Mom, pause and think before you say it.

No flame suit required!

[ELCID86]

Haha! Let me rephrase: Most chicks find coupes more attractive. That is not my opinion

Gotcha. Thanks!


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[Romulan]

Thanks for NOT disrespecting our female members.

A good rule of thumb around here is if you wouldn't say it in front of your Mom, pause and think before you say it.

No flame suit required!

My apologies! Meant no disrespect

[sillieidiot]

BMW said it themselves. They wanted a higher performance sedan and to extend the life of the E46 platform. Thus was born the ZHP. So yes, M3-lite in a sedan version.

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source? yeah i remember them saying that it's an upgrade to the 330 (hence why it's a package, just like how sports package is an upgrade to the regular 330). then all the news outlets picked it up and said that it was the closest thing you could get to an m3. but i don't remember BMW ever saying that the performance package is like a lite m3.

[danewilson77]

My apologies! Meant no disrespect
It's all good. Now ya know. We're a bit different here :)

No flame suit required!

[Bird-Dog]

We're a bit different here :)
I dunno. The guys over at XYZ forum say this place is really not special.

(j/k)

[BCS_ZHP]

No coupe love here, have owned 10 e46s consisting of 7 coupes (4 ZHP), 2 verts (1 ZHP), and 1 wagon, never have had a sedan though have tried to buy one several times.

[Bird-Dog]

The purchase is a bust. Too much wrong with it to even consider buying at rock bottom.

Oh well, the search goes on...

Thanks for all the replies, though!

[cakM3]

I love ZHP coupes! :)

[pilotnick1203]

I got my coupe for 8500 (I'm 16) that being said I had about 4k in maintenance. Auto or manual?


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[Bird-Dog]

I got my coupe for 8500 (I'm 16) that being said I had about 4k in maintenance. Auto or manual?


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This one was a slushbox. We'd prefer 6MT, but the price was just too tempting.

$8500 is our budget on this car for my son, and that needs to include any immediate repairs. I honestly did not, and do not, expect to be able to get him a ZHP for that. But, seeing one priced this low was encouraging... right up until we got the PPI report LOL.

So, it's back to Plan-A... search for a ZSP 330Ci and hope we find a seller with a ZHP who doesn't know the market for them (i.e. doesn't really know what they've got)..

[ZHP Dave]

They're out there. I picked up my SG sedan with the 6MT for exactly 8,500 OTD. The dealer thought it was a regular old 330, and assumed no one would want a manual BMW. They never put pics up, and were about to send it to auction. Luckily a friend ran the VIN and saw that it was a ZHP packaged car.

I was only looking for ads with pics, and usually searched by keywords ZHP and/or performance package. In doing so, the car I ended up buying was never even on my radar.

[pilotnick1203]

This one was a slushbox. We'd prefer 6MT, but the price was just too tempting.

$8500 is our budget on this car for my son, and that needs to include any immediate repairs. I honestly did not, and do not, expect to be able to get him a ZHP for that. But, seeing one priced this low was encouraging... right up until we got the PPI report LOL.

So, it's back to Plan-A... search for a ZSP 330Ci and hope we find a seller with a ZHP who doesn't know the market for them (i.e. doesn't really know what they've got)..

Good choice with the 6mt. My auto ended up costing more than 2500$ to fix. Still going to manual swap it or buy an e30 5spd as a toy car.


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[johnrando]

source? yeah i remember them saying that it's an upgrade to the 330 (hence why it's a package, just like how sports package is an upgrade to the regular 330). then all the news outlets picked it up and said that it was the closest thing you could get to an m3. but i don't remember BMW ever saying that the performance package is like a lite m3.

MY term was M3-lite, not theirs. Theirs was the reasoning behind the ZHP is what I was focusing on... which was they wanted a performance sedan.

[Bird-Dog]

^ It would be interesting to know how the decision to offer the ZHP package on coupes and convertibles came about.

It could be that they planned it from the start, phasing in the 2-doors, in typical fashion, a year after the sedans. Or, it may be that it was in reaction to customer demand. If their salespeople heard "But, why can't I order it on a 2-door?" often enough, that input is bound to eventually make its way up the chain.

[sillieidiot]

MY term was M3-lite, not theirs. Theirs was the reasoning behind the ZHP is what I was focusing on... which was they wanted a performance sedan.

i know that. i was saying that they didn't say anything like that explicit or implied. it was merely an upgrade to the 330. otherwise they would have slotted a whole new model between the two. besides, with their mentality during the e46 generation, there's no way they would have even considered that. we'd have an //m in front of our 330 otherwise, just like the //m235 if that was the case.

with barely any performance increase i don't even know how you can still consider it an m3-lite. 330+ is more like it. that is more acceptable, there is way too much of a difference in performance for it to even be considered an M3- lol


^ It would be interesting to know how the decision to offer the ZHP package on coupes and convertibles came about.

It could be that they planned it from the start, phasing in the 2-doors, in typical fashion, a year after the sedans. Or, it may be that it was in reaction to customer demand. If their salespeople heard "But, why can't I order it on a 2-door?" often enough, that input is bound to eventually make its way up the chain.

it was planned from the start for facelifts. otherwise the zhp package wouldn't have started on the first year for coupes and delayed to 05-06. besides, if anything they made it for the coupe first. any one remember the club sport package?

[az3579]

it was planned from the start for facelifts. otherwise the zhp package wouldn't have started on the first year for coupes and delayed to 05-06. besides, if anything they made it for the coupe first. any one remember the club sport package?

The Club Sport package was purely aesthetic over a sport package car, like of like the difference between a Sport and an M-Sport.

[sillieidiot]

The Club Sport package was purely aesthetic over a sport package car, like of like the difference between a Sport and an M-Sport.

Yes, but I'm talking about the stuff on it. The ZHP was merely a package taken from off the shelf parts in other BMW packages then put together for ours. Then they added some performance stuff there after. it's just like the M3 ZCP. That thing was in no way the M3 CSL lite in any sense. They merely took off the shelf CSL stuff and put it on the M3 and bam, package.

The mt2 aero kit/interior bits was already made for the prefacelift coupes in the clubsport package. They didn't make that package from the ground up and start with the sedan like what you guys are implying they did.

[jsfbmw]

There is definitely coupe love. It has the "more sporty" or sexier body. I've also posted this in other threads, the coupe trumps the sedan in this area: wind buffeting. I have a coupe and it is pure pleasure to open the driver window and not get buffeted by wind. In a sedan, the wind whips you in the face. I can even open the passenger window and there is just a glorious wind-flow behind my head. Can't do that in a sedan. Today, the weather was a bit warmer (NJ) and I also had the sunroof open. The wind came in but did not attack my face; it was behind me. Even in the winter, I often open the driver window and blast the heat, and enjoy an open-air experience.

One curious point, for autocrossing, the Boston Chapter of the BMW CCA ranks the sedan a couple of points higher than the coupe. Wonder why that is. Nonetheless, both body styles serve their purposes. No denying the convenience of 4 doors. However, I absolutely love my coupe.

[LivesNearCostco]

I have heard the sedan has a stiffer chassis and is more stable at high speeds while the coupe turns faster because it has a shorter wheelbase. Does it have a shorter wheelbase?

[KevinC]

The coupe is actually slightly wider than the sedan, if memory serves correctly...

[3ZHPGUY]

It's all about the lines. The bodies between the saloon and the coup/vert are significantly different. After looking at them side by side, the saloon is far more refined and better looking. Quick observations are the front bumper is much closer to the grill on the saloon. The hood lines are softer and run out in a "V" shape to the windshield corners and not straight back. The side lines that run through the door handles are much shorter on the saloon and blend nicer.

You do have to get them next to each other to notice that thar are not the same, at all.


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[johnrando]

There is a post somewhere on here with a side by side comparison with pictures.

[ranger]

I thoroughly enjoyed my ZHP coupe until it was rear-ended and totaled. It was the perfect Atlanta commuter. I had other cars available - Audi A4 wagon and wife's E350 if I needed more doors.

[webster]

Love my coupe. Much better looking than the sedan imho.

[sillieidiot]

Love my coupe. Much better looking than the sedan imho.

+1, the coupe is way cleaner. there's no bumper strips to break up the bumper all of a sudden. the side skirts flow better with the splitter on the bottom of the bumper. not to mention with CS splitters, in which it was designed to have, the sideskirts look even better with it than the sedan.

[danewilson77]

There is a post somewhere on here with a side by side comparison with pictures.

http://www.zhpmafia.com/forums/showthread.php?7984-Designers-nice-comparison-of-coupes-vs-sedans&highlight=comparison

[webster]

all AW lovers should see this

http://www.e46fanatics.com/forum/showthread.php?t=784198

[Washburn]

I have had that thread bookmarked since the day it was posted - my own AW coupe with 12k miles was bought almost the same day as the one mentioned on that thread- also, there's a link on the opening post on that thread which takes you to a thread where they discuss the differences further I think ...

The few, the special - the AW ZHP coupe! ;)
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[Bird-Dog]

Thanks for all the positive input on ZHP Coupes. I think they look outstanding.

I'm on the trail of another one now. This one looks to be a good'un... a car that's been loved... 04 SG/Alcantara by 2nd owner w/ 90K miles. I've made a deal on it for $9,500 pending PPI (with much higher hopes for a clean bill-of-health this time). It's going to be about 3-weeks to complete the deal due to out-of-state location and unrelated travel plans for both buyer and seller in the meantime. Will do a follow-up "new arrival announcement" in about a month, hopefully!

16155

[JFern]

I've got nothin' but love for mine :dunno

[BRGcoopahS]

Love my coupe. Much better looking than the sedan imho.

I have always found coupes to be better looking than the sedans. They're sleeker, so I don't know why people would prefer a sedan version of any car. The only two cars I prefer the sedan version of are the honda civic Si sedan and the e90 M3 sedan.

Anyway, I always thought the convertibles were the bastard step child of the ZHP's. Id say theres no love for the verts.

[johnrando]

Ouch! I really hope Ness didn't hear you say that. [emoji1]

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[az3579]

I have always found coupes to be better looking than the sedans. They're sleeker, so I don't know why people would prefer a sedan version of any car. The only two cars I prefer the sedan version of are the honda civic Si sedan and the e90 M3 sedan.

Anyway, I always thought the convertibles were the bastard step child of the ZHP's. Id say theres no love for the verts.

Exactly the opposite in my mind.


To each his own.

[cakM3]

...Anyway, I always thought the convertibles were the bastard step child of the ZHP's. Id say theres no love for the verts.

Damn .... I find your comment amusing considering you own a vert ;)

[johnrando]

They are the best, but he's right, typically not a lot of love for them. I think it's just jealousy. :biggrin

[ZHP Dave]

I've always thought the E46 platform looked great as a vert. I'm insanely jealous of how cheap hardtops are for them too.

[Washburn]

Matter of preference
Pointless thread / argument, really


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[cakM3]

Personally...I like the entire E46 platform.... Each having their own unique characteristics to be enjoyed :thumbsup

[az3579]

Matter of preference
Pointless thread / argument, really


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Couldn't be said any better.

[johnrando]

Actually not pointless. The point of the original post, which we ran with in another direction, was the low number of coupes and the OP was curious as to why, as he's looking for one. We took the OP and ran with it in a different direction.

Of course it's a matter of preference, so yes, that part is somewhat moot, but nothing wrong with expressing your preference. Just friendly banter, nothing out of sorts here.

[danewilson77]

Actually not pointless. The point of the original post, which we ran with in another direction, was the low number of coupes and the OP was curious as to why, as he's looking for one. We took the OP and ran with it in a different direction.

Of course it's a matter of preference, so yes, that part is somewhat moot, but nothing wrong with expressing your preference. Just friendly banter, nothing out of sorts here.
+1

"No flamesuit required"

[Fenrir]

I want em all.. 4 dr for the kids, drop top for the wife and I, aaaand make my coupe into a lil toge monster.

The sedans are beautiful, have wonderful lines, and have a sheer presence the coupes sometimes lack. The coupes on the other hand have an aggressive yet refined look to them and look amazing with visual mods.. Not that the sedans don't. And the verts? They look like they've already arrived when they're sitting still and carry just as much presence as the sedans while having that sporty coupe look and they never have sunroof issues to boot!:p

[cakM3]

I want em all.. 4 dr for the kids, drop top for the wife and I, aaaand make my coupe into a lil toge monster.

The sedans are beautiful, have wonderful lines, and have a sheer presence the coupes sometimes lack. The coupes on the other hand have an aggressive yet refined look to them and look amazing with visual mods.. Not that the sedans don't. And the verts? They look like they've already arrived when they're sitting still and carry just as much presence as the sedans while having that sporty coupe look and they never have sunroof issues to boot!:p

I like this :thumbsup

[BRGcoopahS]

Damn .... I find your comment amusing considering you own a vert ;)


Ouch! I really hope Ness didn't hear you say that. [emoji1]

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Im given a pass since i have one ha. I love verts anyway.

[johnrando]

Yup.

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