2003 zhp - power loss

[shadowpuck]

Hi all - longtime member here, but don't get to post as often as I'd like!

I'd like some input on something I've noticed with my 2003 330. At present, I have a long commute, nearly all interstate highway so the vehicle gets up to temp and gets to stay there for at least an hour.


This is a 2003 330i, 6spd, ZHP, with 216000 miles. What's happening is a brief loss of power around 2k-2500 RPM with some load on the car - say 2nd gear, or 3rd gear. It's very specific - once the revs get past about 2500 or so the car is fine, pulls just like one would expect all the way to redline. I know the ZHP has had a host of these types of issues over the years, mostly solved through software. I am at the latest revision of software offered for this vehicle.

The pre-cat O2 sensors have recently been replaced with Bosch (no wire splicing) units. The plugs are about 36k old, and are NGK BKR6EQUP. The DISA isn't original, but has been in there a while - about 130k. The CCV system also has not been replaced - not long ago I did some testing with a Dwyer Magnehelic gauge and things appeared in spec; however, I haven't checked lately. Years ago, as part of a campaign, the coils were replaced.

I also recently replaced a failed mass air flow sensor. The car definitely feels more alive with the new MAF, just this one little issue remains. I do not have an SES light or anything on. I'm not sure what additional information or testing I need to perform to help troubleshoot this issue. I do have access to INPA/GT1. During a recent visit to the dealer for an alignment I was told there are no air leaks in the motor, but I'm not sure if a smoke test was performed.

Also, for those with INPA/GT1 experience on this DME, where are you finding the long/short term fuel trim info?

[ELCID86]

I just cured an issue of really poor running and power loss at low RPM (especially when the engine was cold) by replacing the 6 coils. I have 186k mi.

[static667]

Usually the CCV symptoms show up at idle, that I've noticed. Have you done your VANOS seals? That may be some of the issue but I don't think it would cause a major power loss.
http://www.beisansystems.com/

[GE Geoff]

Usually the CCV symptoms show up at idle, that I've noticed. Have you done your VANOS seals? That may be some of the issue but I don't think it would cause a major power loss.


+1
Did mine and changed everything.

[shadowpuck]

hmmm. it definitely seems to be pointing toward CCV or VANOS - but, coils aren't a bad idea either. while the car is well maintained and i know its entire history (2nd owner, 1st is a good friend), the mileage on the motor could cause any of these to be an issue. i'm going to capture some live data while the problem occurs and see if anything looks out of the norm.

i haven't checked recently, but i did a test of the CCV using a magnehelic gauge a while back and it tested within spec. i'll revisit that.
the vanos has not been touched so regardless of this issue its due. the CCV is original too.

this car sees almost nothing but highway miles at highway speed so certain systems (like CCV) i think have lasted much longer than the norm. or, i'm just lucky...hehe.

the coils are not original - but, they've been in for quite a while. they were replaced as part of a BMW campaign (service bulletin to switch from Bremi to Bosch, i believe) many, many miles ago.

i do need to check for any stored codes and get the live data. i'll update when that is done.

thanks for the thoughts thus far!

[GoGators]

if you haven't done VANOS, I would start there. you are way over due!

not sure of the exact rpm they phase in, you could research that. If yours are orginals, you dont have anything to lose.

my previous 330 had 320k miles on it when I sold it... I don't think you will get much change with anything ignition related. CCV should show symptoms at idle. I have done the VANOS seal replacement (beissan) and bought a replacement from (drvanos) in the past. I like the replacement and mail back core path. a much quicker and simple repair.

[LivesNearCostco]

I second (or 3rd) the suggestion to do the VANOS seals, either DIY with Beisan or swap the whole unit with Dr. Vanos. Since you've updated the DME software and replaced the MAF recently, it sounds like a camshaft timing issue, which is usually VANOS seals. Could be camshaft position sensors or a stuck VANOS solenoid. You can remove, clean and replace the VANOS solenoids but getting the exhaust solenoid off requires a specific deep 32mm socket--I bought 2 deep ones that didn't fit and still have never removed mine. (I removed, cleaned and reinstalled the intake solenoid using a 32mm wrench.)

So do the VANOS seals then if still have this issue perhaps try cleaning the VANOS solenoids.
I am assuming a DISA issue would show up more between 3500-4000 RPM than 2000-2500 RPM, but you can always pull out your DISA and check that A) the flap is not loose, and B) the flap once turned doesn't return completely to its rest position if you block the vacuum port with a finger before letting go of the flap.

[Crickett]

shadowpuck, I think I’m experiencing the same symptoms you are: a brief drop or hesitation in power as I accelerate out of shifting into second or third gear (right around 2k RPM). It’s not every single time, nor have I been able to reliably reproduce the phenomenon, but it has been becoming more recent and definitely lines up with your report.

I also seem to have a very similar set of circumstances to yours: high mileage (136k here), nearly all of my daily miles are from my highway commute, most recent DME software (fixed the standard “4k dip”), and my original CCV. Where I differ, though, is that I have repaired both my VANOS (Beisan kits) and my DISA (GAS kit).

Subscribed for any further insight from the Family!

[shadowpuck]

i haven't had a chance to check for codes look at live data yet - hope to do so this weekend.
mine also isn't consistent, but does it more often than not. at present, i can drive around the issue on the street.

[shadowpuck]

i did get to pull codes this weekend, but not any live data other than at idle.
interestingly, there were codes stored for both CATS below efficiency threshold.
so, at present, given the mileage on the parts, i'll attack the DISA and the VANOS.

i'm hoping to get some time to try testing the VANOS using the computer - just for fun/learning.

[Crickett]

Interesting…I also pulled my codes this weekend and didn't find anything related. I also reset my adaptations (all via IPNA); didn't have the hesitation this morning, but I'm withholding judgement until I've had a few more problem-free drives.

[shadowpuck]

hmmm - keep us updated with anything you find. it'll be a while before i can dig into this any further, but i will update when i have a chance to do some more.

[GE Geoff]

Travis/Shadow,
Any updates here?

[Crickett]

Travis/Shadow,
Any updates here?

So far so good here. I've had one instance of a *hint* of hesitation since, though I'm not certain if it was the same issue as before.

[shadowpuck]

just curious - how did you reset adaptations in INPA?

i'm definitely getting a distinct hesitation at 2k RPM in 2nd and 3rd gears with what i would call moderate throttle application.
i ran some live data of the VANOS system while doing this and it appears to be functioning correctly according to a couple of techs that have looked at the results.

i'm also having stored engine codes for both cats and the MAF - even though the MAF is brand new. no CEL.

i may just end up taking it in to the shop for diagnosis as my time to fiddle with it isn't increasing anytime soon.

[Crickett]

just curious - how did you reset adaptations in INPA?

Mine ended up all in German somehow, but I figured it out:

Start INPA -> “E46” (F3) -> Engine: MS 45.0 -> “adaption” (F8) -> select which adaptations to clear:

F1: “LL” (“idle”)
F2: “Knocking”
F3: “Lambda”
F4: “Vanos”
F5: “DK” (“throttle valve”)
F6: “Intake tube”
F7: “Octan” (“octane number adaption”)
F8: “variant” (“learned variants”)
F9: “all”
Shift+F1: “Segment”
Shift+F2: “Secondary air system”
Shift+F3: “Fuel into oil”

I simply used F9 to clear them all. Heads up: it doesn’t give you a “are you sure?” warning when you push the button, it just does it!

[shadowpuck]

mine is in german for this DME too. most others i've done are translated, but, not the ZHP DME.

was the engine running when you did this?

[Crickett]

mine is in german for this DME too. most others i've done are translated, but, not the ZHP DME.
Yeah, the other DMEs are all English for me, too.


was the engine running when you did this?
Negative; I believe the text at the top of the adaptations page in INPA is a warning to that effect: engine off!

[shadowpuck]

good to know. i read just enough german to be dangerous, and my neighbor is reasonably fluent so we can usually fight our way through it if needed.

i think it was one of the v8 engines that needed to be running when adaptations were cleared....thus the question...

at this point, i'm kinda debating my next steps. i know there are things i could replace due to mileage/age (DISA, VANOS, etc.) but i'm trying to not be a parts thrower. i've got some tech friends looking at data and such to see if they see anything.

as i mentioned - i may end up at a trusted shop for a diagnostic....we'll see.

[shadowpuck]

well, i'm gonna try some free things first. i'm going to clean the throttle and ICV, and check the DISA operation.
i really need a smoke machine...

[Dave1027]

well, i'm gonna try some free things first. i'm going to clean the throttle and ICV, and check the DISA operation.
i really need a smoke machine...

I saw a scotty you tube where he simply blew cigar smoke into a hose connected to the intake.

Also there's this https://youtu.be/J5O5gzIAuhc

[shadowpuck]

i have looked into both of those options in the past. i keep scrounging around equipment auctions to find a deal!
fortunately, i have two shops in the area that will do smoke tests for a reasonable fee....as a DIYer, though, it'll be nice to have one on the shelf in the shop....

[shadowpuck]

so, ordered some new intake boots, throttle body gasket, etc. in prep for some cleaning and inspection fun times.
with work and other plans, it'll be a while again before i can update this. i'm on the slow boat here....

[shadowpuck]

update - work is getting in the way of my attempts to fix a broken car.

anyway.

just for grins, i cleared the adaptations and went for a drive. initially, all seemed much improved but within minutes i had the hesitation issue.
cleared all the wacky codes from the adaptation reset. went for another drive and it is hesitating.

today, unplugged the MAF and went for a short drive - issues all gone. plugged MAF in and hesitation issue immediately returned.
oh, and tested my still original CCV - 2inh2O at idle on a warm motor, and goes to 4inh2O upon shutdown. the running number is actually under spec.

my questions are related now to the GT1/DIS - does anyone know how to get the ZHP DME into expert mode for testing? I'd like to do the VANOS functional test and have read/heard about some DISA testing as well.

[shadowpuck]

haven't had time to explore the GT1 testing, but did determine the problem doesn't appear until the car is in closed loop. also, found the problem disappeared if the DISA was unplugged.

i have an upgraded DISA from GAS on the way, and will also replace the intake boots as well as check out the ICV and throttle body.

[shadowpuck]

replaced upper and lower intake boots, cleaned ICV (it was not sticking) and installed new G.A.S. DISA valve.
the old DISA, which had ~130k on it, appeared fine and passed all tests I could find to check functionality. It did exhibit some vacuum bleed down.
however, there wasn't much change in the problem. There is still a hesitation around 2500 now (previously it was around 2000). the hesitation isn't as bad as before, but it's still there.

[shadowpuck]

good grief - i've been bad about not keeping this updated.
the report at present is i've gone full tilt on refreshing the zhp. in december, i did all suspension, etc. so, now i attacked the vanos (rebuilt drvanos), belts, pulleys, post-cat o2 sensors, driveshaft and flex disc, rebuilt shifter (added UUC dssr), new front wheel bearings, new transmission mounts, new engine mounts.

i'm in the middle of finishing that work. will report back once i'm done.

in the meantime, for those that track your cars and have stainless/braided brake lines - be sure and replace regularly. had a heck of a ride in my e36 track car this past weekend when a line broke and i lost brakes in a heavy braking zone.

[ELCID86]

Well after texting with BP last night I unplugged my DISA for the 50 mi run in to work today. The 2500-3500 lag is mostly gone. Not sure why or how b/c everyone says the DISA is all about 4k dip. Botond suggests I give it a few days and see if it returns.


Thumbs, iPhone, Tapatalk.

[shadowpuck]

i went and visited a good friend with a well-respected shop. he spent most of the day with the car and diagnosed my issue as failing/failed cats. while it was there i also had the CCV replaced as I knew it needed to be done. we found two bad coils so replaced all six.

planning next steps at this point.

[shadowpuck]

on the plus side - the UUC DSSR made a huge difference along with the shifter rebuild. also, the driveshaft cured a bunch of vibration issues i had. the drvanos kit also quieted down that item tremendously. at least all the parts i've replaced definitely needed it. the passenger motor mount was so done it's not even possible to put it into words. the driver's side had compressed noticeably compared to the new one.

[Crickett]

Wow! That’s quite a few parts replaced; glad they all needed it, though. I’ll have to check my cats/O2 sensors now…


On iP6 + Tapatalk

[shadowpuck]

yeah, i'm keeping the car either as a continued daily driver, or its going to become my primary track car so i can retire the e36. so, one way or the other, this stuff needed to be done.

[shadowpuck]

since we all hate threads without a resolution, and i'd been guilty here - i thought i'd update to let everyone know what took place with this issue.

so, after determining it needed cats i started planning. i looked at OE cats, aftermarket cats, headers, etc.

i ended up with the header kit from VAC motorsports (https://store.vacmotorsports.com/e46-non-m-complete-header--high-flow-sport-cat-package-p2936.aspx) - which, as it turns out, is the schmiedmann kit. it took seemingly forever to arrive, but it did finally get here...

i had a good friend with a shop perform the install. he said it was a bit of a fight, and not exactly plug-n-play, but it did go together.

the results are nothing short of outstanding. in addition to restoring the stock performance, it definitely feels like there's more now!

[ELCID86]

Glad you got it sorted out and thanks for the update on how.


Thumbs, iPhone, TaT.