Taking the ZHP Skiing in CO

[Fried_Chicken]

It can't wait, and neither can I.


I need to prepare the ZHP for driving in the snow. I'm still on the fence on getting snow chains. I will be running Michelin PSS in the back and something... in the front. No idea if I'm going to encounter terrible winter driving.

I just did an oil change, brakes are good, AAA membership is good. Are there any other considerations?

Really excited, can't wait!

[ELCID86]

Blizzaks.


---
"ZHP is a garbage option anyway- just some cosmetic upgrades with a different cam and diff to claw back some of the performance lost fitting those hideous and heavy wheels. Any 330 with a 3.46 diff will smoke a ZHP every time. The whole Mafia thing reeks of childish behavior." - an e46f member

[UdubBadger]

Blizzaks.


---
"ZHP is a garbage option anyway- just some cosmetic upgrades with a different cam and diff to claw back some of the performance lost fitting those hideous and heavy wheels. Any 330 with a 3.46 diff will smoke a ZHP every time. The whole Mafia thing reeks of childish behavior." - an e46f member

:rofl

Yeah I'd say get some high quality snow tires, maybe even a set of the fabric snow chains ECS Tuning sells just in case. Other than that, filler her up with the finest premium fuel you can find and let her rip.

[ryankokesh]

:rofl

Yeah I'd say get some high quality snow tires, maybe even a set of the fabric snow chains ECS Tuning sells just in case. Other than that, filler her up with the finest premium fuel you can find and let her rip.

Yeah, the pilots will get hard in the cold and you'll go skiing in your car instead of on your skis. (Haha, I crack myself up... :rofl )

Get something with a winter compound. And you can get those Maxtrax knockoffs cheap on Amazon. Not sure how bad the weather you're looking at will be.


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[az3579]

I need to prepare the ZHP for driving in the snow. I'm still on the fence on getting snow chains. I will be running Michelin PSS in the back and something... in the front. No idea if I'm going to encounter terrible winter driving.

That's flat out dangerous. Summer tires and snow/cold do not mix very well.

I'd skip the chains and go for the winter tires as everyone else has suggested.

[NoVAphotog]

It can't wait, and neither can I.


I need to prepare the ZHP for driving in the snow. I'm still on the fence on getting snow chains. I will be running Michelin PSS in the back and something... in the front. No idea if I'm going to encounter terrible winter driving.

I just did an oil change, brakes are good, AAA membership is good. Are there any other considerations?

Really excited, can't wait!

Based on stories my Dad has shared with me about skiing and living in CO in his time there (7+ years) you would actually be fine with snow chains over the summer tires. Chains are literally the best thing you can use in the snow. He used to have an old Dodge Dart in CO and with snow chains had absolutely NO issues getting up snow covered mountain passes (shitty 70s tires, no DCS/TSC, RWD). His friend had an original VW Beetle, again, with chains (and the weight of the engine in the back) NO issues.

This being said, it would CONSIDERABLY better and safer to run Blizzaks on all four corners for DD use in the winter and then if you are going to encounter severe snow put chains on as mentioned above are the key to getting through when it becomes intense. But keep in mind the ZHP is no Jeep...you can really only do so much when the car is a couple inches off the ground clearance wise. Keep that in mind.

[az3579]

As nice as chains are, their use is limited, unfortunately. They are definitely a go-to for specific situations, however.

[ryankokesh]

As nice as chains are, their use is limited, unfortunately. They are definitely a go-to for specific situations, however.

Yup.

All-seasons and chains? Maybe. PSSs and anything to do with winter? Nope. Just not what I'd consider safe.

[Vas]

Winter tires would be your best option. Otherwise some brand new all season tires are the next best option.

Summer tires and cold weather + snow do not go hand in hand.

[UdubBadger]

+4 on that. That's old ass way of thinking. PSS harden up like hockey pucks at about 45 degrees. All season will be better but winters will be best option. You likely won't even need chains on winters unless you find yourself in a foot or more of unplowed snow.


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[BMWCurves]

I've driven on summer tires in sub-40F weather in my dad's 540i. I don't enjoy it. They tires lose a ton of grip, the car becomes twitchy. I made the mistake once of thinking I could make it back up the hill to my house from the gym before it was supposed to snow. Well, the snow came early with about 1/2" accumulated but I decided to attempt to make it home anyways. The car barely made it 50 yards up a ~1 degree incline before I had to abandon the effort and walk the rest of the way. Dedicated snow tires are worth the investment IMO if you drive in the snow for any length of time.

[oldzilla]

Get some chains and put them in the truck...The weather in CO can and will change drastically in a blink of an eye. And it is even more fun in the mountains...

[quikryptonite]

This man made the mistake of driving a hyper car with summer tires in the cold. Didn't turn out well:

Man Crashes Prize Car Hours Later (http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700209005/Utah-man-wins-Lamborghini-crashes-it-hours-later.html)

[yura]

I will be running Michelin PSS in the back and something... in the front.

For your sake, I hope you're trolling.

[Fried_Chicken]

For your sake, I hope you're trolling.

I'm not trolling. It's a 5 day ski trip and I'm definitely not shelling out for Blizzaks. I plan on driving up to the resort and not touching the car. Chains are a $20 option with my only concern being the tight clearances in the ZHP.

[NoVAphotog]

I'm not trolling. It's a 5 day ski trip and I'm definitely not shelling out for Blizzaks. I plan on driving up to the resort and not touching the car. Chains are a $20 option with my only concern being the tight clearances in the ZHP.

They use chains all the time in Europe...why certain clearances are setup the way they are on these cars. I think you'll be fine... :shifty

That said, can't someone else drive?? Friend have a Subaru or Jeep or something? Usually the way I play it...it's fun to drive around in fresh powder and do some snow drifting, but that's about the extent I push the ZHP when I could use my Dad's truck or friends SUVs to do anything more serious.

[az3579]

I'm not trolling. It's a 5 day ski trip and I'm definitely not shelling out for Blizzaks. I plan on driving up to the resort and not touching the car. Chains are a $20 option with my only concern being the tight clearances in the ZHP.

I understand that cost is a concern, but what about a rental? A cheap rental car even with all-seasons is a much better bet for a trip like this. Or, borrow someone else's car, or wheels with tires... these are far safer options! If you were local, I'd let you borrow my wheels (since it's so "warm" here at the moment, oddly).

Keep in mind, with chains, you'll need to take them off or put them on for when there is or isn't snow, because they are brutal in the dry and you can't really go faster than 20-30mph with them on.

[UdubBadger]

No offense but spring the $200 for a damn used set of winters if you're gung-ho on bringing the zhp. If not, cool it was nice knowing you.

You can't drive on chains on the bare pavement through the pass, so you'll have your bare tires that don't handle properly and will severely increase stopping distances... And still run the risk of hitting ice or thin patches of snow.

Tires are the #1 most important safety item on your car. Don't screw around with them.


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[az3579]

I just did some searching and found something that may be of interest to you. ECS appears to have "textile" snow chains that seem to get the traction down in the snow as well as have some drivability in the dry. I don't know how long they'd last while on the dry asphalt as that's not really what they're meant for, but I'm sure it would be somewhat of a usable compromise. They are more money than standard chains, and you'd need FOUR of them for your car since it's RWD (rears need traction as drive wheels and the fronts do the turning and braking). They're sold in pairs.

Here's a video of them in action:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4B0bLfXrHvY

Here's the various ones they sell at ECS:
https://www.ecstuning.com/Search/SiteSearch/Textile_Snow/



Having these may make it possible to do the whole trip with them installed, though that's a question for the ECS reps than me as it's just an assumption on my part.


EDIT: Nevermind. Maximum speed is still 30mph, which makes it a pain to deal with on a longer trip. At least they're easier to install than standard chains...

[UdubBadger]

Yeah we suggested those already.


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[az3579]

Yeah we suggested those already.


GoingHAM mobile

Sorry, missed that...

[alexandre]

Here's some motivation.

14229

However, +1 to tires or rental. Chains sound like a PITA to deal with.

[Fried_Chicken]

Here's some motivation.

14229

However, +1 to tires or rental. Chains sound like a PITA to deal with.

Can't. Wait.

I'll probably get chains. $20, will get me out of the worst conditions. Pretty sure the rest of the car is up to it.
Maybe I could get a cement block and stick it in the trunk.

[az3579]

Can't. Wait.

I'll probably get chains. $20, will get me out of the worst conditions. Pretty sure the rest of the car is up to it.
Maybe I could get a cement block and stick it in the trunk.

Dunno about you, but anytime I've put something heavy in the back, the floor caves in to the spare tire area. :(

[BMWCurves]

Dunno about you, but anytime I've put something heavy in the back, the floor caves in to the spare tire area. :(

Ouch. Fried_Chicken, you could put something like a thin but wide wood board in the trunk first to try and avoid the floor caving, then put in a cinder block or sand bags if you think that would help.

[brewer90]

I lived in Colorado for four years during college. The ZHP is not a good choice. Putting on chains in the cold and deep snow sucks.

I hope it goes well for you.

[az3579]

Ouch. Fried_Chicken, you could put something like a thin but wide wood board in the trunk first to try and avoid the floor caving, then put in a cinder block or sand bags if you think that would help.
Good idea.

sent from my Droid Turbo

[3ZHPGUY]

I'm not trolling. It's a 5 day ski trip and I'm definitely not shelling out for Blizzaks. I plan on driving up to the resort and not touching the car. Chains are a $20 option with my only concern being the tight clearances in the ZHP.

Chains are fine until one comes loose or you break a link. When that happens damage gets nasty. I drove my ZHP in the winters of northern Ohio for 5 years and always had a set of dedicate winter tires. Yes, Blizzak's make a huge difference and are worth the money and also extends life on the summers.


Sent from my iPhone 6S using Tapatalk

[ryankokesh]

Sounds like he's gonna run chains and risk it. Just glad it's not my car :)

Good luck. Seriously. Please drive safely, for your sake as well as others'.

[alexandre]

Dunno about you, but anytime I've put something heavy in the back, the floor caves in to the spare tire area. :(

Really ? That's never happened to me and I carry heavy stuff pretty often. Maybe look into replacing the trunk floor - I'm sure it'd be cheap at a scrap yard.

[az3579]

Really ? That's never happened to me and I carry heavy stuff pretty often. Maybe look into replacing the trunk floor - I'm sure it'd be cheap at a scrap yard.

The floor is fine, no need to replace it...
Maybe the plastic lip that holds it up. I dunno. It's done that ever since I bought the car at 75k, and it was plenty strong back them.

[ryankokesh]

The floor is fine, no need to replace it...
Maybe the plastic lip that holds it up. I dunno. It's done that ever since I bought the car at 75k, and it was plenty strong back them.

I think I know what you're talking about... I think it happened to me once when one of the layers wasn't quite aligned or something.

[SwiftyM3]

I vote for buying dedicated snow tires. I picked up a set of 17" w/ blizzak's ~50% tread locally for a negotiated price of $155. They aren't perfect, but sure are a hell of a lot better than ruining the 135's.

If you refuse, I suggest buying a running 325xi on your local CL, using it for the trip, and trying to flip it for more after the trip. ;)

Good luck!

[ELCID86]

Silvercar.com


---
"ZHP is a garbage option anyway- just some cosmetic upgrades with a different cam and diff to claw back some of the performance lost fitting those hideous and heavy wheels. Any 330 with a 3.46 diff will smoke a ZHP every time. The whole Mafia thing reeks of childish behavior." - an e46f member

[ryankokesh]

I vote for buying dedicated snow tires. I picked up a set of 17" w/ blizzak's ~50% tread locally for a negotiated price of $155. They aren't perfect, but sure are a hell of a lot better than ruining the 135's.

That's a great idea... so many more safetys. (And so much cheaper than an insurance claim.)

23162

[ryankokesh]

Silvercar.com


---
"ZHP is a garbage option anyway- just some cosmetic upgrades with a different cam and diff to claw back some of the performance lost fitting those hideous and heavy wheels. Any 330 with a 3.46 diff will smoke a ZHP every time. The whole Mafia thing reeks of childish behavior." - an e46f member

I saw that!! That's a great option if he can get one at LAX.

[ryankokesh]

Look what I found!

https://turo.com/car-rental/ca/los-angeles?makes=jeep

Pretty nifty, right?

[Whammy]

As one whom lives in CO and has driven up in the mountains with Blizzaks, you would be stupid to drive with summer tires and snow chains. Even with Blizzaks, driving in the mountains is not always a safe bet. You have inclines/descents of 4-6 degrees. Add in black ice, it is a dangerous situation. There is a reason why I have a Jeep Cherokee as a second/winter vehicle. Swallow your pride and rent an SUV for the trip.

[UdubBadger]

Well here is the thing. He's saying he is not worried about anything other than being caught in the snow. Problem is what if there isn't snow but it's 10 degrees and somewhat icy? You can't run chains on that and hell summer tires in even 40 degree weather suck massively when it comes to steering and braking.

You are setting yourself up for a big pain in the ass drive IMO. Car isn't going to drive how you want it to and could be so bad it becomes a huge issue for you and you'll be stuck along the way.

$20 snow chains won't do anything but get you out of deep snow. If you want to actually be able to drive the car properly and comfortably you need AT LEAST all seasons if not winter tires.

If you can't budget the $200 or whatever to get winters maybe you need to reconsider the trip. I really would hate to have something happen if you choose to go on as-is and have to say we told you so.

I was in Summit County last winter in a Jeep GC with all seasons and it was even a little sketchy on some of those mountain roads even after they'd been cleared of snow.


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[bosszhp]

I'll give my .02 cents on my experience with driving my manual E39 wagon last winter on all season Continentals for what it's worth. I drove that car everyday through what was one of the worst PA winters I've experienced in awhile (thank god I'm in Florida now). If there was anything I learned from that it's that a large majority comes down to the driver. I would be driving in complete white-out's with no problem while people in AWD cars and trucks were getting stuck and going off the road. That being said, I agree with everyone that running PSS is suicide. I have them on my car now since I live in Florida and I couldn't imagine running those, front or rears, in the snow. I think you could pull it off with some all seasons and good driving (plus chains), at least that way you have something far better then PSS that can be used all year.

[ryankokesh]

I was in Summit County last winter in a Jeep GC with all seasons and it was even a little sketchy on some of those mountain roads even after they're been cleared of snow.

Yer always a little sketchy... :amiright

[az3579]

Yer always a little sketchy... :amiright

This.

[UdubBadger]

I can't fight that argument


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[ryankokesh]

This.

23164

[UdubBadger]

K now I know you're lame


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[az3579]

But I'm right-handed... it's a guaranteed miss if I use my left. lol

[ryankokesh]

But I'm right-handed... it's a guaranteed miss if I use my left. lol

Oh weird... It's a left on my screen too... figured it'd be reversed on yours since you were looking at it from the other direction :hawaiian



Also, where'd OP go? I think we've just been talking to ourselves for like three days now. :scratchinghead

[ELCID86]

That's a great idea... so many more safetys. (And so much cheaper than an insurance claim.)


I have one reserved for my ski trip to CO in Feb. I wonder if they run snow tires or provide chains in case of emergency? I need to call.


---
"ZHP is a garbage option anyway- just some cosmetic upgrades with a different cam and diff to claw back some of the performance lost fitting those hideous and heavy wheels. Any 330 with a 3.46 diff will smoke a ZHP every time. The whole Mafia thing reeks of childish behavior." - an e46f member

[ryankokesh]

I have one reserved for my ski trip to CO in Feb. I wonder if they run snow tires or provide chains in case of emergency? I need to call.


---
"ZHP is a garbage option anyway- just some cosmetic upgrades with a different cam and diff to claw back some of the performance lost fitting those hideous and heavy wheels. Any 330 with a 3.46 diff will smoke a ZHP every time. The whole Mafia thing reeks of childish behavior." - an e46f member

I'm gonna have to guess that's a big nope. Who knows though!


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[az3579]

I have one reserved for my ski trip to CO in Feb. I wonder if they run snow tires or provide chains in case of emergency? I need to call.


---
"ZHP is a garbage option anyway- just some cosmetic upgrades with a different cam and diff to claw back some of the performance lost fitting those hideous and heavy wheels. Any 330 with a 3.46 diff will smoke a ZHP every time. The whole Mafia thing reeks of childish behavior." - an e46f member
Most rental places run all seasons.

sent from my Droid Turbo

[UdubBadger]

Most rental places run all seasons.

sent from my Droid Turbo

Yeah so get the awd option if possible, you'll need all the help you can get. Like I said my jeep even had some issues in snowy icy drives in and out of the pass.


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[ELCID86]

Yeah so get the awd option if possible, you'll need all the help you can get. Like I said my jeep even had some issues in snowy icy drives in and out of the pass.


GoingHAM mobile

Thanks BP and yes Seth, Colin talked me into upgrading to a Jeep a few years ago when we were out there. It was below zero and very icy/snowy on the roads. Well worth the upgrade in the long run (except for the plastic uninsulated roof...!)


---
"ZHP is a garbage option anyway- just some cosmetic upgrades with a different cam and diff to claw back some of the performance lost fitting those hideous and heavy wheels. Any 330 with a 3.46 diff will smoke a ZHP every time. The whole Mafia thing reeks of childish behavior." - an e46f member

[ryankokesh]

Thanks BP and yes Seth, Colin talked me into upgrading to a Jeep a few years ago when we were out there. It was below zero and very icy/snowy on the roads. Well worth the upgrade in the long run (except for the plastic uninsulated roof...!)


---
"ZHP is a garbage option anyway- just some cosmetic upgrades with a different cam and diff to claw back some of the performance lost fitting those hideous and heavy wheels. Any 330 with a 3.46 diff will smoke a ZHP every time. The whole Mafia thing reeks of childish behavior." - an e46f member

That's just the jeep "experience". You pay a premium for that shit.


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[UdubBadger]

Ouch. I'd look for a Cherokee if possible!


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[NYRhockey]

Ouch. I'd look for a Cherokee if possible!


GoingHAM mobile

If you're going Jeep it's Wrangler / Grand Cherokee or GTFO. None of these Cherokee, Renegade, Patriot, Compass clown shows.

[ryankokesh]

If you're going Jeep it's Wrangler / Grand Cherokee or GTFO. None of these Cherokee, Renegade, Patriot, Compass clown shows.

Whoa there...

[UdubBadger]

If you're going Jeep it's Wrangler / Grand Cherokee or GTFO. None of these Cherokee, Renegade, Patriot, Compass clown shows.

I meant grand chero anyway but yeah I agree


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[Fried_Chicken]

I'll give my .02 cents on my experience with driving my manual E39 wagon last winter on all season Continentals for what it's worth. I drove that car everyday through what was one of the worst PA winters I've experienced in awhile (thank god I'm in Florida now). If there was anything I learned from that it's that a large majority comes down to the driver. I would be driving in complete white-out's with no problem while people in AWD cars and trucks were getting stuck and going off the road. That being said, I agree with everyone that running PSS is suicide. I have them on my car now since I live in Florida and I couldn't imagine running those, front or rears, in the snow. I think you could pull it off with some all seasons and good driving (plus chains), at least that way you have something far better then PSS that can be used all year.

Ok; I just mounted Michelin Pilot Sport AS3s on the back (thought they were PSS’s, turns out I ordered AS3’s), and yokohama somethings on the front. I also bought 4 cheap-ass chains from Amazon for $80 shipped.
Do you have any specific advice for snow driving?

To everyone else, I appreciate your doom and gloom comments, and I will definitely be cautious, however I don’t think driving in the snow is some sort of rocket science. I’ve got massive tires, extraordinarily advanced DSP, snow chains for when it gets really bad, and while I don’t have 4 wheel drive I do have 4 wheel braking with ABS.

I have managed to gather some useful tips/tricks.
1. Use 2nd instead of 1st gear
2. Jump to higher gears quickly, even if the engine complains
3. Let the engine warm up (this is more important than in warmer climates)
4. If you get stuck use the floor mats to get going again
5. If you start sliding on a down slope, gently let off the brakes to gain traction again.
6. If I feel uncomfortable I will find a parking spot and practice.
7. With ABS just mash the brakes.
8. Rear wheel drive is not ideal, but modern traction control negates this issue
9. Don’t be intimidated by people trying to scare you out of snow driving
10. When practicing, purposefully bring yourself to sliding so you learn where the danger zone is, and how to counter-steer and regain control appropriately. (This will remove your fear and give you confidence)

Following these tips will let you keep up with traffic, further mitigating your chance of an accident.

Source (In German):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBE7GIJ3jmk
and
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9O07Z5ar1SI

[3ZHPGUY]

The e46'chassis is one of the best in snow with its 48-52 weight distribution however; that doesn't help without tires specific designed for all season or m/s.

I ran with two e46's side by side in the winter. My 2903 ZHP with Blizzak's and my wife's 06 330CIc with Michelin Pilot Super Sports. All I can say is, I could go anywhere and she could go nowhere.

With that said from a guy that grew up in Buffalo, NY; invest in the blizzak's if you are doing a lot of snow driving and still want to have your ZHP in the spring. One added note; the DSC will prematurely were out your rear brake pads if used regularly for traction in snow.

Pay me now or pay me later.


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[az3579]

First I'm going to touch on some of the tips that you posted, then I'll give you a few of my own.


... however I don’t think driving in the snow is some sort of rocket science.

Rocket science? No, but it really is an artform and takes some skill. If you've never driven in it before, then you're in for a BIG surprise as to how easily you lose traction. It does take some good practice to get it down. This is why people lose their minds and crash into EVERYTHING when it snows in any of the southern states that don't get snow, for example.



I’ve got massive tires, extraordinarily advanced DSP, snow chains for when it gets really bad, and while I don’t have 4 wheel drive I do have 4 wheel braking with ABS.

Massive tires are a bad thing in the snow. For better traction, you want skinnier tires of a winter compound. Big tires get stuck easier in the snow, so this is a detriment to you, not an assist. There's a reason the world rally cars have skinny tires when running in the snow.

If by DSP you mean DSC, then yes, you do have it... but it doesn't do anything for you other than maybe reduce the severity of an oversteer condition. Traction control kills whatever grip you could potentially muster up when you're trying to get up an incline. With that being said, I find the single-press mode to be the most valuable, as in the mode that it enters when you press the button once and only the traction control light comes on in your cluster. It allows for some wheelspin so it can "grab" the snow if it's spinning a little bit, where DSC being fully on would kill even that little bit of wheelspin. Whenever there's snow on the ground, I personally fully disable it because it hinders me more than helps me.

4-wheel braking with ABS means nothing in the snow. If it's at the point of ABS, then you're going too fast for the conditions. When ABS kicks in, your wheels are already sliding. What I would do instead is be very very very gentle on the brakes in the snow and leave a LOT of following distance to whatever is in front of you. If you usually leave a 4-second following distance, you might want to double it. If you're on the highway, leave as big a distance as you possibly can because those speeds are usually somewhat faster than on a backroad. Distance is your friend; ABS and DSC won't do jack if you have to brake hard. "Brake very early" is key in the snow.

From your quote, with my comments in bold below each comment:



1. Use 2nd instead of 1st gear -
-- Good tip. This makes it easier to start off when at a stop. It isn't always necessary, however. Try first ... first... lol. Then if that doesn't work, try second.

2. Jump to higher gears quickly, even if the engine complainls
-- I typically do this as well, and is also a good thing to do. The engine doesn't complain for anything above say 800 RPM or so. If you shift at 1.5 - 2k then you're good. More importantly than where you shift is be very light on the throttle!

3. Let the engine warm up (this is more important than in warmer climates).
-- This is unnecessary. When an engine idles, it's wearing unnecessarily because the oil isn't up to temperature to properly lubricate it. It warms up a LOT faster when you drive, so lubrication takes place sooner. You can start driving immediately, just keep the revs low.

4. If you get stuck use the floor mats to get going again
-- Haven't heard this one before, but every little bit helps I guess. Never had to do this. Bring a shovel with you to get rid of as much snow as you can before doing this.

5. If you start sliding on a down slope, gently let off the brakes to gain traction again
-- Yes. The absolute best thing to do is, when in doubt, go down the hill very very slowly. The AWD E46's (xi models) have a feature called Hill Descent Control, which pretty much brakes your car so you go down the hill extremely slowly. You don't have it, but can do it yourself. Practice doing this where there's no turn at the bottom of the hill. I wouldn't exceed 5mph if you're going down a steep hill.

6. If I feel uncomfortable I will find a parking spot and practice.
-- This is always the best option! Absolutely do this.

7. With ABS just mash the brakes.
-- Fruitless effort - the wheels are already sliding if you hit ABS. Instead, leave lots of distance, brake very lightly, and brake very early. Don't get into a situation where you'd need ABS. If you do... then I guess you'll just have to pray that you stop in time.

8. Rear wheel drive is not ideal, but modern traction control negates this issue
-- Not entirely correct. Correct driver skill negates this issue. That, and a proper set of winter tires! However, driver skill can usually compensate for winter tires (if you have all seasons) if you have very good skill.

9. Don’t be intimidated by people trying to scare you out of snow driving
-- True. Practice, practice, practice, and you'll get pretty good at it. :)

10. When practicing, purposefully bring yourself to sliding so you learn where the danger zone is, and how to counter-steer and regain control appropriately. (This will remove your fear and give you confidence)
-- Always a great thing. Experience brings the most skill, so induce as many of the "oh shit" scenarios as you can while practicing to get a feel for them. You'll be amazed how little it takes to lose control in the snow and especially the ice.



Some tips of my own.
* Be very light on the throttle at all times, especially in the middle of a turn.
* When you're about to go up an incline, build up speed before you hit the bottom of the incline. You want to carry as much speed as you can if you think you're going to get stuck. This momentum will help you get up the hill. Only do this if it's safe to do so.
* If you're faced with an incline you just can't seem to get up, try reversing up the hill! This technique worked for me in my E30 on a steep hill where I only had crappy all-seasons.
* Put your better tires in the back. I know it seems opposite of logic (front wheels steer and do most of the braking) but you're going to be driving cautiously anyway. Putting the better tires on the back gives you the option of backing up the hill if you needed to, since those are your drive wheels.
* If you get stuck, do a rocking motion (pendulum effect). Try to start off in first, then when the car lurches forward a little bit, push the clutch in and let the car rock back. Once it hits the back point, do the same thing over and over till you can rock the car out of whatever rut you're in. It's hard to describe in text, so I recommend checking out to YouTube videos on techniques for getting stuck in the snow.
* You can let out some pressure out of your tires to get a little more traction in the snow. The difference is negligible, but when you're desperate...

[alexandre]

I helped a guy who was stuck and had tried the floor mat trick. Didn't move an inch and his mats were teashed. Traction aids are where it's at! I have a set of those - http://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/folding-steel-traction-aid-0301108p.html - in my car at all times during the winter and they've saved my ass a couple times.

[BMWCurves]

+1 to BP's advice.

General safe snow driving to me is smooth and controlled inputs that minimize upsetting the current balance of the car, with lots of room to spare around you if you do lose traction.

I drove back yesterday from Seattle around Mt. Rainier to avoid some traffic. It dipped below freezing, it was snowing, snow was on the ground, and I was on my Toyo summer tires. I could feel my car slipping here and there, but by being patient, cautious, and using slow and smooth brake, steering, and shifting inputs, I got home with no issues.

[UdubBadger]

Jeeze he's so worried about being stuck in snow but having driven Colorado many years in winter it's not even the snow that will do you in. If you want to drive more than 45-50mph on the pass you need handling and your a/s tires in cold weather will stiffen up enough to make you lose a lot of it.

Chains and all that aren't likely needed unless they get a blizzard, I've even driven from Denver to Steamboat in a blizzard in a Kia Sportage without chains, you won't likely need them because they close those highways when conditions are bad enough to warrant the chains and they plow before they open them back up.

At least he's not on summer tires. That alone will change the majority of his issues but yeah still can't recommend winter tires enough.



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[bosszhp]

Ok; I just mounted Michelin Pilot Sport AS3s on the back (thought they were PSS’s, turns out I ordered AS3’s), and yokohama somethings on the front. I also bought 4 cheap-ass chains from Amazon for $80 shipped.
Do you have any specific advice for snow driving?

To everyone else, I appreciate your doom and gloom comments, and I will definitely be cautious, however I don’t think driving in the snow is some sort of rocket science. I’ve got massive tires, extraordinarily advanced DSP, snow chains for when it gets really bad, and while I don’t have 4 wheel drive I do have 4 wheel braking with ABS.

I have managed to gather some useful tips/tricks.
1. Use 2nd instead of 1st gear
2. Jump to higher gears quickly, even if the engine complains
3. Let the engine warm up (this is more important than in warmer climates)
4. If you get stuck use the floor mats to get going again
5. If you start sliding on a down slope, gently let off the brakes to gain traction again.
6. If I feel uncomfortable I will find a parking spot and practice.
7. With ABS just mash the brakes.
8. Rear wheel drive is not ideal, but modern traction control negates this issue
9. Don’t be intimidated by people trying to scare you out of snow driving
10. When practicing, purposefully bring yourself to sliding so you learn where the danger zone is, and how to counter-steer and regain control appropriately. (This will remove your fear and give you confidence)

Following these tips will let you keep up with traffic, further mitigating your chance of an accident.

Source (In German):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBE7GIJ3jmk
and
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9O07Z5ar1SI

+1 on all of this. Also try and keep your momentum up as much as possible. Getting stuck half way up a hill without any moment really sucks lol. Only questionable thing I see in that list is letting the engine warm up. There is much debate on how much you should let the car idle/warm up before driving. From what I gathered during my research last year most people will tell you to let it warm up until the rpms drop to their normal range (around 500) then drive off. Last year I daily drove my E39 wagon during winter and did this, never had any problems. Also shifting early until the car reaches normal operating temperature. I'm sure someone will chime in and tell you otherwise but this is what worked for me and for others.

Edit: If you don't want to ruin your floor mats cat litter also works, I know it sounds strange but it works!

[ryankokesh]

Drive like there's a cup of coffee on your dash.

Those traction things Alex mentioned are great.

If you're feeling too uncomfortable/sketcthed out, stop at a gas station or something. Get a cuppa hot cocoa and chill for a bit.

When in doubt, listen to BP. Or, here's some tips from Bridgestone's Winter Driving School in Steamboat: http://www.tirerack.com/winter/tech/techpage.jsp?techid=119


Good luck.

[UdubBadger]

Thats in Steamboat? I need to go there next time I'm out that way!

[ryankokesh]

Yup!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Fried_Chicken]

Just got back;
all you naysayers are crazy and need to get out more;

pictures to follow

[brewer90]

Still think you were crazy ;-) Glad you made it safely and had a good time.

[Fried_Chicken]

Ok; got some Pictures.

It was me and my buddy from HS.
The drive basically took us through Ft. Worth in Texas, then up through Amarillo, and then briefly into New Mexico to merge with I-25, and into Colorado.
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In New Mexico we experienced the first snowy/icy roads, and gave us a glimpse at all the horrors of driving in winter while being an idiot.

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Then we took a basically single lane road to Salida and finally up the Mountain pass to Gunnison. Interestingly, as we entered Salida I got a warning light on my dashboard, low coolant. O_O WTF. I checked, and the coolant was indeed leaking out the bottom, but I had no idea from where. I suspect a tumbleweed from North Texas or New Mexico might have dislodged or damaged a coolant line. Either way, we had a goal to finish, and I wasn’t particularly worried about the ZHP overheating as the temperature dropped to -30°C O_O!!!!
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I’ve never experienced this much cold, and I seriously began to wonder about obscure systems in the car failing that I otherwise would never have thought of. (Brake lines at -30C? Coolant? Wipers? Flex Disks? Engine Mounts?) But I digress, and nothing bad happened. We didn’t get stuck and forced into a homosexual survival situation, the car neither overheated nor froze to death. The tires didn’t crack under the stress of whatever. We didn’t skid off the mountain and tumble to our death, and despite my inexperience at snow driving, I still managed 50-60mph; and could definitely have gone faster if I’d so chosen and hadn’t been on the road for 13+ hours already.

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Skiing was excellent. Turns out we came right after a massive snowstorm, so the resort had relatively fresh powder (although the insane locals had already eaten the most delicious powder). Turns out the storms we drove through on the way up had actually killed some people. Damn; sucks.


Anyway, here are some bonus pics of the ZHP in the snow: (Notice the frozen Engine)

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Anyway, in this whole time I had snow chains, but I never used them. It was good we had them, as I think they were required for that -30°C pass, but I never had to use them. Up in Crested Butte, I didn’t see anyone using snow chains, but I did see a lot of “dedicated snow cars”. Completely unnecessary. The only disadvantage I had was being a little slower on accelerating with the rear-wheel drive, but other than that, no problem. The car will go anywhere, and the ABS and DSC systems work incredibly well to keep you safe. (remember although you don’t have 4-wheel drive, you do have 4-wheel braking.) In fact the only major car trouble I had was that unexplainable coolant leak and the need to remove the damaged driver’s side front lower fender that was destroyed by a stupid tumbleweed. (small things happened too: The front windows got stuck and didn’t lower again until we hit warmer climates; the wiper sprayers froze, and the HVAC fan made a squeaky noise until we hit normal temperatures again, and the “Alpine” head unit turned autistic and useless until the car warmed up - shame on their branding).


So yeah; all you naysayers, you don’t need tanks to go into the snow.

[az3579]

I had a feeling that -30 degree reading wasn't correct. You said you had a damaged left side lower fender liner - that means your temperature sensor also got damaged. The car isn't reading temps correctly as a result. Just something to look into. [emoji6]

Sent from my LG V10 on Tapatalk

[UdubBadger]

-22F isn't unheard of temps. I've driven cars in that almost every year up this way and I'm not even close to Canada.


GoingHAM mobile

[az3579]

-22F isn't unheard of temps. I've driven cars in that almost every year up this way and I'm not even close to Canada.


GoingHAM mobile
I only mentioned it because that liner piece he had to remove is where the Temp sensor mounts. If the liner was damaged and ripped off, chances are the sensor is damaged or gone. I went through this myself.

Sent from my LG V10 on Tapatalk

[UdubBadger]

ah i hear ya.

[Fried_Chicken]

I had a feeling that -30 degree reading wasn't correct. You said you had a damaged left side lower fender liner - that means your temperature sensor also got damaged. The car isn't reading temps correctly as a result. Just something to look into. [emoji6]

Sent from my LG V10 on Tapatalk

It's definitely correct lol. The lower front fender came loose, but I only removed it to prevent damage at high speeds (100+mph).

On the way back it was reporting the temperature in the engine compartment which was kinda useful lol.

[az3579]

It's definitely correct lol. The lower front fender came loose, but I only removed it to prevent damage at high speeds (100+mph).

On the way back it was reporting the temperature in the engine compartment which was kinda useful lol.


Oh ok. Mine read -30 when my sensor ripped out of that piece you just mentioned, and seemed suspicious that it was on 30 on the dot. Good deal.

[NYRhockey]

Just got back;
all you naysayers are crazy and need to get out more;

pictures to follow

Get out more? people who lived in the area and with experience in driving in those conditions were advising you on what would be the most sensible thing to do. Instead you chose to ignore it, got lucky and now brag about it, lol. smh

[alexandre]

Dealt with most of your issues. Low coolant: you had an air bubble in the heater core that got dislodged since you ran the heat for so long. Bleed the system properly and you should be good. Temp as BP said could be an issue but -30 is definitely possible. HVAC blower is a common issue - replace it when the whistling starts happening at higher temps or when it bothers you. My windows are frozen shut all winter until I park inside or it warms up - not much you can do about that.

In northern VT this weekend!

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[Fried_Chicken]

Oh ok. Mine read -30 when my sensor ripped out of that piece you just mentioned, and seemed suspicious that it was on 30 on the dot. Good deal.
Interesting; When I disconnected it it showed +50C.
I have a picture at -31.5 but it was blurry, and the low point was -32C.

It was a fun trip; I want to go skiing again xD

[Fried_Chicken]

Dealt with most of your issues. Low coolant: you had an air bubble in the heater core that got dislodged since you ran the heat for so long. Bleed the system properly and you should be good. Temp as BP said could be an issue but -30 is definitely possible. HVAC blower is a common issue - replace it when the whistling starts happening at higher temps or when it bothers you. My windows are frozen shut all winter until I park inside or it warms up - not much you can do about that.

In northern VT this weekend!

23473

There was definitely a leak; when I pulled over I saw it running out underneath the expansion tank.

GOOODDD Winter driving is so much fun. You can practice sick drifts on an empty parking lot. I would love to drive on a frozen lake someday.

[az3579]

Interesting; When I disconnected it it showed +50C.
I have a picture at -31.5 but it was blurry, and the low point was -32C.

It was a fun trip; I want to go skiing again xD

Yeah, mine would alternate between the extreme hot temp and the extreme low temp readings. Glad you had fun!



GOOODDD Winter driving is so much fun. You can practice sick drifts on an empty parking lot. I would love to drive on a frozen lake someday.

Drifting is literally the ONLY thing about winter I like. Everything else (the plowing, the cold, the ice) can go to hell. lol

[ryankokesh]

So yeah; all you naysayers, you don’t need tanks to go into the snow.

I'm pretty confident no one said that...

But anyway, glad you had a fun, safe trip!

[ELCID86]

+1 Rolled the dice and came out ok. If you'd run into the weather I hit a few years back it could have been a different story.


---
"ZHP is a garbage option anyway- just some cosmetic upgrades with a different cam and diff to claw back some of the performance lost fitting those hideous and heavy wheels. Any 330 with a 3.46 diff will smoke a ZHP every time. The whole Mafia thing reeks of childish behavior." - an e46f member