Talk to me about clutches

[Karl Lazlo]

my 247k mile ZSP likely needs a clutch. It's the original clutch and it's not slipping, but engages very high, it is numb and I frankly hate it.

Please keep in mind, it's a 5 speed.

Looking at a few kits that replaces the self adjusting clutch and dual mass flywheel... Anyone replace that SAC and./or DM flywheel for something a little more "traditional"?

[05Imola]

Have you tried bleeding the clutch? That can cause some numbness.

[Karl Lazlo]

Hmmmm. You are onto something. I have not. Worth a shot as my car is at my indy now anyway. Have them do it while it's there.

[slater]

does the 5-speed havce a self-adjusting clutch?

i'm actually going to be doing this after tax return time this year. my DMF has a lot of play in it, and i'll likely be going with a sprung hub clutch disc and single-mass flywheel.

[az3579]

Looking at a few kits that replaces the self adjusting clutch and dual mass flywheel... Anyone replace that SAC and./or DM flywheel for something a little more "traditional"?


Other than rattle/chatter city, there is no downside to going to a single mass / lightweight flywheel and a replacement stock clutch. There's a performance improvement to be had with a lighter flywheel, namely much more eager revving, which makes rev matching easier and acceleration improve.

Personally I couldn't live with that insane chatter, but I know this isn't something that wouldn't bother you so I say go for it, especially since it's not your daily and you don't have to listen to it all the time. :)

[05Imola]

My first car had an 11lb flywheel. The chatter did get annoying but the car was loud so it covered it up well. On my second car I went from a dual mass to a single mass but only a few lbs lighter. No chatter at all. If you don't go super light you should be fine.

[slater]

Other than rattle/chatter city, there is no downside to going to a single mass / lightweight flywheel and a replacement stock clutch. There's a performance improvement to be had with a lighter flywheel, namely much more eager revving, which makes rev matching easier and acceleration improve.

Personally I couldn't live with that insane chatter, but I know this isn't something that wouldn't bother you so I say go for it, especially since it's not your daily and you don't have to listen to it all the time. :)

supposedly the sprung hub clutch disc helps dial down the chatter quite a bit with a lightweight aluminum SMF.



My first car had an 11lb flywheel. The chatter did get annoying but the car was loud so it covered it up well. On my second car I went from a dual mass to a single mass but only a few lbs lighter. No chatter at all. If you don't go super light you should be fine.

did you use a sprung hub clutch disc with that second flywheel?

rogue has a steel SMF that is 20lbs, i don't know if it is compatible with our 6-speeds but i am going to contact them. i'd rather go with a 20lb steel SMF than an 10.5lb aluminum SMF.

[Karl Lazlo]

Other than rattle/chatter city, there is no downside to going to a single mass / lightweight flywheel and a replacement stock clutch. There's a performance improvement to be had with a lighter flywheel, namely much more eager revving, which makes rev matching easier and acceleration improve.

I wasn't planning on going super light, hopefully to avoid the chatter associated with light flywheels. But, the gains are attractive.


Personally I couldn't live with that insane chatter, but I know this isn't something that wouldn't bother you so I say go for it, especially since it's not your daily and you don't have to listen to it all the time. :)

I am hoping to avoid that, but the mission is to replace the DMF with something simpler and a more natural feel. I hate the clutch in these cars. I think I will just stop using it.

[05Imola]

supposedly the sprung hub clutch disc helps dial down the chatter quite a bit with a lightweight aluminum SMF.




did you use a sprung hub clutch disc with that second flywheel?

rogue has a steel SMF that is 20lbs, i don't know if it is compatible with our 6-speeds but i am going to contact them. i'd rather go with a 20lb steel SMF than an 10.5lb aluminum SMF.

The first was a sprung six puck SPEC clutch and the second was also sprung but just an oem upgrade.

[az3579]

supposedly the sprung hub clutch disc helps dial down the chatter quite a bit with a lightweight aluminum SMF.




Do you have any examples of the chatter with a setup like this? I'd like to hear it as I'll probably be due for a clutch soon. I'd replace it with a lightweight flywheel if I could get it to shut up!

[slater]

Do you have any examples of the chatter with a setup like this? I'd like to hear it as I'll probably be due for a clutch soon. I'd replace it with a lightweight flywheel if I could get it to shut up!

i don't. i saw some videos on youtube, but the microphone quality is such that you just don't hear anything at all even when the person on the video states that there is chatter.

there is one video i found of a guy with a pre-facelift 330Ci (5-speed) that used a lightweight aluminum flywheel, and a stock SAC, and he claimed there was very little noise heard from within the cabin.

the heavier steel SMF, if we can get one (i've contacted rogue), seems like the best option - albeit pricey - their entire 'PCS' (Performance Clutch System - clutch, PP and SMF) is $1490!

i've got enough DMF grief going on now that i could put up with some chatter instead (vibration on decel, elasticity in the powerband at times - it's minute, but it's there - the DMF has got to be flexing a lot).

[slater]

found this one too - price is good, and it comes with a steel 14lb flywheel. will definitely be checking this one out.

http://www.clutchmasters.com/fx100-03cm3-hd00-sk/

[Karl Lazlo]

Well, a bleed didn't help it all that much. Still kinda numb.

I guess that the clutch gave me plenty of service life, at 247k miles. Doesn't slip, but guess I will put a new clutch on the list for this spring.

[Karl Lazlo]

Well, I am ordering a new SMF and non-SAC clutch next week. My 03 is going in to my indy for other stuff while he's under there...

Looking at these two kits from ECS:

https://www.ecstuning.com/b-valeo-parts/single-mass-flywheel-conversion-kit/52401220~val/

https://www.ecstuning.com/BMW-E46-330Ci-M54_3.0L/Drivetrain/Clutch/ES2770848/

Tired and too much coffee and can't figure the differences b/t the two kits...

And another thing that chaps my ass, I read this quote about clutch life and I saw red. I can't stand this line of thinking:

"The correct procedure is to put the car in neutral and release the clutch when the engine is running and the vehicle is not moving." What a line of BS.

What ages a clutch is slipping and improper engagement. Holding the clutch disengaged while in gear doesn't age a clutch. if so, I would have a hell of a lot less than 252k on the original clutch. Add in commutes, lots of traffic, etc. I don't "need" to replace my clutch, just tired of the numbness and want a normal clutch again.

[az3579]

And another thing that chaps my ass, I read this quote about clutch life and I saw red. I can't stand this line of thinking:

"The correct procedure is to put the car in neutral and release the clutch when the engine is running and the vehicle is not moving." What a line of BS.

What ages a clutch is slipping and improper engagement. Holding the clutch disengaged while in gear doesn't age a clutch. if so, I would have a hell of a lot less than 252k on the original clutch. Add in commutes, lots of traffic, etc. I don't "need" to replace my clutch, just tired of the numbness and want a normal clutch again.

I don't think it's the clutch that it wears by doing that, but instead the pressure plate.

[09mageec]

I don't think it's the clutch that it wears by doing that, but instead the pressure plate.
Correct

[Sockethead]

That numbness you feel isn't necessarily a worn clutch, it's the self adjusting clutch. It's just a POS. The pedal position will change from one day to the next and just general mushiness. But yea, you got some serious mileage on that clutch. Funny how the description says "failure prone" yet a bunch of us have well over 100k on our stock clutches... they aren't failure prone, they just suck.

BTW, you did remove your clutch delay valve, yes?

I'd say that if your not going to add any serious HP to the car, the $579 one from ECS would be fine... why spend the extra money if you don't really need it ...

EDIT: Just got an email from ECS... big sale going on, good time to buy...

[Karl Lazlo]

That numbness you feel isn't necessarily a worn clutch, it's the self adjusting clutch.

Understood. I can imagine that despite the mileage, the clutch surface is fine, because I am a driving NINJA and know how to drive a manual gearbox.


It's just a POS.

Yup. And I'm a driving NINJA, but that's been covered already.


But yea, you got some serious mileage on that clutch. Funny how the description says "failure prone" yet a bunch of us have well over 100k on our stock clutches... they aren't failure prone, they just suck.

100k? That's a rookie number. I told you about me being a NINJA, right?

Yeah, the SAC and DMF is for people who are mouth breathing booger eaters. Not for us NINJAS.


BTW, you did remove your clutch delay valve, yes?

Yup. Gone some time ago.


I'd say that if your not going to add any serious HP to the car, the $579 one from ECS would be fine... why spend the extra money if you don't really need it ...

Pretty much my conclusion. I don't see adding real speed adders to the motor.

Thanks!

[az3579]

Yeah, the SAC and DMF is for people who are mouth breathing booger eaters. Not for us NINJAS.



Don't forget those of us who can't stand that stupid SMF chatter.



Sent from my LG V10 on Tapatalk

[slater]

Don't forget those of us who can't stand that stupid SMF chatter.



Sent from my LG V10 on Tapatalk

i think it's supposed to be a non-issue with the 20# steel SMFs...

[az3579]

i think it's supposed to be a non-issue with the 20# steel SMFs...

But if going through the effort, why not just get a lighter one?
I don't see the benefit of getting a single mass flywheel and not going as light as possible.

Performance is the only benefit I know of for going with a SMF... is this not the case?

[Sockethead]

BP aren't you the one that hates light flywheels? Lol
The benefit of going with single mass, be it heavy or light is to get rid of the self adjusting pressure plate and going with the traditional pressure plate and sprung hub on the disk.

[slater]

But if going through the effort, why not just get a lighter one?
I don't see the benefit of getting a single mass flywheel and not going as light as possible.

Performance is the only benefit I know of for going with a SMF... is this not the case?

well, longevity too - the DMF is a wear item, it has rubber bits in it - mine is wearing out and it has a weird 'springiness' to it. a 5lb weight reduction over the stock DMF in going with the steel SMF is icing on the cake. personally - i've had a car with a 10lb flywheel before, and it's not what i want for the ZHP. 20lb steel SMF sounds perfect.



BP aren't you the one that hates light flywheels? Lol
The benefit of going with single mass, be it heavy or light is to get rid of the self adjusting pressure plate and going with the traditional pressure plate and sprung hub on the disk.

yep! :) aside from the $1000 price tag, it's all good. :)