Talk me out of selling my sedan...

[bimrologist]

Long story short, I've come across an Imola E39 M5 for sale that is just begging me to bring it home.. and there's no way the misses will be on board with 2 shiny red sport sedans in one garage.

The ZHP is paid for, needs absolutely nothing and is a blast to drive on a daily basis. I went through the entire car shortly after I drove it back from San Antonio this passed winter and have loved every minute of it. Moreover, just a few months ago I sprung for Active Autowerke performance software with secondary air and post O2 functions deleted, Supersprint catless headers and a set of coilovers.

I've always wanted to own an M car, and I feel like the E39 M5 is the most attractive given that it's still a proper car with 4 doors ; ) and has the least amount of gut-wrenching failures as compared to say the E46 M3 or E6x M5/M6. I'm torn!!

[Vas]

No. Don't do it. The steering feel is not the same

[bimrologist]

I've never had someone comment on the steering feel of an E39 M5 before but you and I are in complete agreement! Never been a fan of gearboxes compared to rack and pinion steering for sure. That def just killed the mood, much abliged sir!


No. Don't do it. The steering feel is not the same

[az3579]

All my opinion, having driven both:

The ZHP is a better car as a package. With the M5, all you really get is the motor and maybe the comfort. The rest of it the E46 does better, IMO, at least from a driving enjoyment perspective.

I've driven my friend's E39 M5 a few times and while the motor and power is addictive, the rest of it was incredibly meh to me. You may feel differently driving one, but the horrendously laggy drive-by-wire system in that car ruined the whole experience for me, since I rev match every shift. I couldn't rev-match is anywhere close to as well as my car, which was a major letdown for me personally. Let's not mention the maintenance costs, because they are astronomical.

On the plus side, you have an attractive, comfortable, powerful sedan with a decently large boot and enough space to comfortably fit rear passengers.

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[BMWCurves]

I second most of BP and Vas' thoughts. I find the E39 platform to be sporty, but more of a GT car than a sports car like the E46. It's a lot heavier, the steering is much slower (something like 17:1 vs the ZHPs 13.7:1, and I personally don't need the size. I've never driven an M5, only a 540i (the poor man's M5), but I prefer the E46. I can understand all of that going out the window for that 400 hp V8 though. Its sound is glorious. The car is gorgeous.

[NoVAphotog]

I've never had someone comment on the steering feel of an E39 M5 before but you and I are in complete agreement! Never been a fan of gearboxes compared to rack and pinion steering for sure. That def just killed the mood, much abliged sir!

Vas, Shawn and William have talked me out of selling for an M3 several times. It comes and goes. Don't let the ///M's call to you. Stay off of the classifieds!

S54...mystic blue...black leather...6mt...8000rpm...

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160804/8125e142fcecf565993bad38e0924740.jpg

Nooo...Nooooo...it's happening again...!!!

Must think...

Rod bearing maintenance item...$$$$$...valve adjustment...$$$$...$1600 tires...i have turn key zhp that looks like it came out of the factory, that needs nothing and three sets of wheels, LSD and coilovers...no reason to change.

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160804/989501f5eb9ce8b2f628fecf403fcb53.jpg

Alright...alright...no ///M's for me...Going to sleep.

Mid pedal travel breaking point clutch.......actually special...noooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!

[webster]

Both are great cars but there are two major factors here

1) 3 v 5 series - either you need the extra room and therefore the weight or you don't

2) maintenance costs - either you're willing to pay twice as much in ownership costs or you aren't


You can see why most people on a ZHP board are partial to foregoing the ///M, but I think you'd get the opposite opinion on an M5 forum...

Choice is up to you obviously.

[KevinC]

At one point I had a Z4MC + my ZHP. Absolutely ideal combo. After 8 years of ownership of the Z4, I decided to swap it for an E39 M5 last year. Went whole-hog and opted for an ultra-cherry, low mileage EAG car. Just short of 1 year later, I was done, sold it back to Eric and bought a new Golf R. The M5 just never turned my crank. The steering is awful, especially compared to the ZHP, which sets SUCH a high bar. The electronics, even for the era, are awful to the point of absurdity. Even with the "upgraded" M-audio system, the stock tunes are absolutely horrendous. Everything else just old and out of date, including no factory Bluetooth, which is pretty much an essential for me nowadays. My ZHP is an '05 and it at least has Bluetooth included with the Premium pack, so at least I can answer a phone call without some expensive add-on module, or hideous aftermarket wart on my visor. But those were relatively minor annoyances, the car and driving experience just didn't do much for me. LOVED the looks, always did/always will - but found myself preferring to drive the ZHP. And now I regret ever unloading the Z4MC, especially since I had bought it new back in '07.

So don't do it.

And the Golf R is an awesome car. I'm about 2200 miles in and loving it. At some point I need to write a review and post some pics.

[D1ESEL]

Spend your money on an e9x M3 if you want an M car. The rest are neat but become maintenance whores very quickly.

[az3579]

The F80 M3 calls my name every single day. But, even if I was to spring for one, huge car payment and all, the ZHP is going nowhere, partially because it's worthless for value (way too many miles) and partially because it's just such an awesome car.

[terraphantm]

The F80 M3 calls my name every single day. But, even if I was to spring for one, huge car payment and all, the ZHP is going nowhere, partially because it's worthless for value (way too many miles) and partially because it's just such an awesome car.

This is pretty much how I feel about my E46 M3 (the ZHP I bought, as much as I like, is just serving a beater role for me). I do have a friend that bought a brand new F8x last year. Hoping he's ready to sell when I finish school lol

[san]

IMO it really depends on your idea of car ownership, what I mean by that is- if you want to experience a wide variety of cars (or just BMWs) then you should get the M5 and maybe sell it when you find something else that you may want... If you view car ownership as finding the perfect car for you and hanging on to it for as long as you can then maybe stick with the Zhp (assuming the Zhp is perfect for your needs)... Each car has its distinct pros and cons and it really comes down to what you want from a car I guess, I haven't drive an M5 but reading the comments above it seems the steering feel isn't as good as the Zhp but it really comes down to if you can live with it or not... If you don't hoon a lot then maybe you won't much of a difference...


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[san]

Spend your money on an e9x M3 if you want an M car. The rest are neat but become maintenance whores very quickly.

I thought e9x M3 had issues with rod bearings and throttle actuators which can be quite expensive, no?


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[NoVAphotog]

I thought e9x M3 had issues with rod bearings and throttle actuators which can be quite expensive, no?


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+1

I've definitely heard of more issues with the e9x than the e46...I mean...massive, high-strung, high-revving V8...just saying that makes my wallet pucker.

[terraphantm]

Even with rod bearings, E9x M3 is the most reliable M-car ever. No VANOS issues, no cooling system issues, no subframe issues, and more robust suspension than most BMWs. I'd say it's more reliable than the 335i and maybe even the 325/328/330s

[NoVAphotog]

Even with rod bearings, E9x M3 is the most reliable M-car ever. No VANOS issues, no cooling system issues, no subframe issues, and more robust suspension than most BMWs. I'd say it's more reliable than the 335i and maybe even the 325/328/330s

Hmm...TIL. I guess that goes to show you the power of internet/forum stereotyping. One person has an issue 4 years in the past and makes a big stink out of it and then it becomes fact.

[slater]

The F80 M3 calls my name every single day. But, even if I was to spring for one, huge car payment and all, the ZHP is going nowhere, partially because it's worthless for value (way too many miles) and partially because it's just such an awesome car.

agreed. the F80 M3 is my next car too. everything about it works for me, except...well... the price. ;)



Even with rod bearings, E9x M3 is the most reliable M-car ever. No VANOS issues, no cooling system issues, no subframe issues, and more robust suspension than most BMWs. I'd say it's more reliable than the 335i and maybe even the 325/328/330s

agreed on this. when i get discouraged about the cost of F80 M3s, i often have a peek at E90 M3s for sale (it would have to be an E90, the sedan is way more practical), and i must admit that i really like them. a sedan with a 6-speed, RWD and a high-revving V8... yes please!! and i've read a lot about it being the most reliable M car - it was actually the most reliable car in their lineup at that time!

:cheers

[terraphantm]

Hmm...TIL. I guess that goes to show you the power of internet/forum stereotyping. One person has an issue 4 years in the past and makes a big stink out of it and then it becomes fact.

I don't mean to imply the rod bearings aren't an issue - they are. I'd probably replace them every 50k miles if I owned one. But even with that they have fewer catastrophic issues than most BMWs.

[BimmerDude]

Supercharge your ZHP :)

[johnrando]

Tough call (even though you decided), but I would vote for the ZHP for a daily driver. If it's not really driven a whole lot, that might be a different thing to factor in the decision. Even still the ZHP would be more practical while still being a great car. But, sometimes, why be practical? :)

[NoVAphotog]

Though call (even though you decided), but I would vote for the ZHP for a daily driver. If it's not really driven a whole lot, that might be a different thing to factor in the decision. Even still the ZHP would be more practical while still being a great car. But, sometimes, why be practical? :)

Who has cars they don't drive...something must be wrong with them. :shifty :shifty

[bimrologist]

All very valid points gents, greatly appreciated. The maintenance costs aren't really a factor since I do everything myself at the shop. The major drawbacks that are steering me back to the ZHP are the lack of tech in the M5 and def the steering feedback. A V8 would be fun, but not really a practical daily. Guess I just needed to hear other people say it! Thanks!


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[johnrando]

Who has cars they don't drive...something must be wrong with them. :shifty :shifty

Unfortunately me for one. :) I work from home, so even though it's a "daily driver" I only drive about 8K miles/year. And sometimes, so I don't put just short trip wear on it I'll just take my wife's Honda if available.

[az3579]

Unfortunately me for one. :) I work from home, so even though it's a "daily driver" I only drive about 8K miles/year. And sometimes, so I don't put just short trip wear on it I'll just take my wife's Honda if available.

I work 2 blocks from home... still have you beat. lmao
Have put 14k on it so far this year!

[san]

I work 2 blocks from home... still have you beat. lmao
Have put 14k on it so far this year!

I'm right behind you! 13k miles for the year...


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[NoVAphotog]

I'm right behind you! 13k miles for the year...


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2 blocks from work + secondary vehicle. Less than 5k.

[MtechJon]

all I got to say is "money" it will cost more to maintain it

[san]

2 blocks from work + secondary vehicle. Less than 5k.

Driving to and from was about 1000 miles for me maybe... The rest was just driving for the heck of driving or going on a road trip lol

It's bittersweet actually, as much as I enjoy driving it, I am also aware that the value of the car is just going down cause of the miles... Although I have no plans of selling, it's nice to know what you have is worth a lot lol...


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[D1ESEL]

I thought e9x M3 had issues with rod bearings and throttle actuators which can be quite expensive, no?


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Rod bearings are easy preventive maintenance $2,300 including install is worth it to me and the throttle actuators aren't too bad either and once you replace them once you are good for 60k+ miles.

I absolutely love mine and it compliments the ZHP perfectly!

[az3579]

Rod bearings are easy preventive maintenance $2,300 including install is worth it to me and the throttle actuators aren't too bad either and once you replace them once you are good for 60k+ miles.

[/QUOTE]


That is some serious coin. I wouldn't be able to daily one of these - it would cost too much to maintain because of stuff like that.
I'm pretty sure that most people who have one of these don't daily it though so I guess it is a moot point.

5-10k miles a year and this isn't so bad. 25-30k a year and you're looking at once every two years!

[D1ESEL]

That is some serious coin. I wouldn't be able to daily one of these - it would cost too much to maintain because of stuff like that.
I'm pretty sure that most people who have one of these don't daily it though so I guess it is a moot point.

5-10k miles a year and this isn't so bad. 25-30k a year and you're looking at once every two years![/QUOTE]

Yeah it's really not to bad in my opinion compared to other M car issues. I would say the most affordable M car is the NA spec e36 M3 followed by the e9x M3.

Doing 25-30k/yr you can't daily most high performance cars without running into issues honestly. Even at Audi the RS4/5 requires a completed carbon cleaning every 45k miles.

[slater]

I work 2 blocks from home... still have you beat. lmao
Have put 14k on it so far this year!

nice. i work from home and have averaged 24K miles per year in the ZHP!



It's bittersweet actually, as much as I enjoy driving it, I am also aware that the value of the car is just going down cause of the miles... Although I have no plans of selling, it's nice to know what you have is worth a lot lol...

well, cars are meant to be driven. and, really, these ones aren't worth enough to care about the mileage.



That is some serious coin. I wouldn't be able to daily one of these - it would cost too much to maintain because of stuff like that.
I'm pretty sure that most people who have one of these don't daily it though so I guess it is a moot point.

5-10k miles a year and this isn't so bad. 25-30k a year and you're looking at once every two years!

right, but those aren't exact figures. i doubt the throttle actuators go like clockwork at 60K. plus, if you did the rod bearings yourself you could probably save about 75% of that price. they don't seem that hard to replace.

[slater]

Doing 25-30k/yr you can't daily most high performance cars without running into issues honestly. Even at Audi the RS4/5 requires a completed carbon cleaning every 45k miles.

true. my dad has a 2007 RS4 with around 95K miles and he's replacing a TON of stuff right now (cam chain tensioners, a new sensors, suspension, lots of every week (LOL), plus doing the carbon cleaning. nuts.

[D1ESEL]

true. my dad has a 2007 RS4 with around 95K miles and he's replacing a TON of stuff right now (cam chain tensioners, a new sensors, suspension, lots of every week (LOL), plus doing the carbon cleaning. nuts.

Gotta pay to play :)

[slater]

Gotta pay to play :)

yep. his other car (well, it's my step-mom's) is a 2009 porsche cayenne turbo S... it's actually WAY more reliable than the RS4! :)

[terraphantm]

That is some serious coin. I wouldn't be able to daily one of these - it would cost too much to maintain because of stuff like that.
I'm pretty sure that most people who have one of these don't daily it though so I guess it is a moot point.

5-10k miles a year and this isn't so bad. 25-30k a year and you're looking at once every two years!

Rod bearings aren't too bad if you're willing to DIY, and it's not as awful a job as it seems. So $500 every 2 years (at 25k miles... I'd probably put more like 10-15k) isn't awful. Throttle actuators aren't cheap, but at least won't cause catastrophic failure if they fail, so you don't have to replace them until they're done.

Gas mileage is the bigger issue for DDing than maintenance IMO

[az3579]

Rod bearings aren't too bad if you're willing to DIY, and it's not as awful a job as it seems. So $500 every 2 years (at 25k miles... I'd probably put more like 10-15k) isn't awful. Throttle actuators aren't cheap, but at least won't cause catastrophic failure if they fail, so you don't have to replace them until they're done.

Gas mileage is the bigger issue for DDing than maintenance IMO

When the words 'rod bearings' were mentioned, that sounds like extensive engine work to me... if it's DIY-able (and I mean for your average wrencher, not a seasoned pro) then perhaps it's not so bad then.

[slater]

When the words 'rod bearings' were mentioned, that sounds like extensive engine work to me... if it's DIY-able (and I mean for your average wrencher, not a seasoned pro) then perhaps it's not so bad then.

yep, it doesn't seem that bad. if you can drop the oil pan, you're there.

[terraphantm]

When the words 'rod bearings' were mentioned, that sounds like extensive engine work to me... if it's DIY-able (and I mean for your average wrencher, not a seasoned pro) then perhaps it's not so bad then.

As long as you're organized, the job isn't so bad.