PDA

View Full Version : VinceBar Sub Frame Reinforcement Kit!


WOLFN8TR
08-28-2016, 06:29 PM
VinceBar Subframe Reinforcement Kit Group Buy!
http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?t=551862

**Group Buy Ends 9/18/16**







http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160729/21805cfbb6a72da5bb5d64d44e943db0.jpg


I've been following Vince's work on fabricating a Subframe reinforcement kit for the E46 chassis. His work is very impressive! Vince has two kits available, a weld in and epoxy in kit. Vince currently has a group buy over on the M3Forum. I told Vince I would be willing to help him let other E46 owners aware of his kit. So here it is with the Danes approval. :thumbsup


​


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Rather than manually fabricating the sheet metal, the square tubes and round tubes, I've modeled the design in 3D and generated dxf and STEP files. This way a laser cutting shop can provide me with components of great quality and in much larger numbers than I could ever fabricate myself.

In order for this to make financial sense, and to lessen my personal risk (to order parts not knowing if I'll be able to sell them) I need to know that at least 15-20 kits will sell. Hence the group buy!

Weld installation style VinceBar- Component kit (to be assembled/welded by the installer)- $335
Weld installation style VinceBar- Assembled kit- $450
Epoxy/Rivet installation style VinceBar- Assembled kit- $575

Weld installation style tool kit- $65
Epoxy/Rivet installation style tool kit- short drill bit- $90
Epoxy/Rivet installation style tool kit- long drill bit- $110


Volume discounts:
- 15-20 kits- 5%
- 21-30 kits- 10%
- 31-> kits- 15%
*All kits containing the laser cut components will count towards the total number.

Shipping examples:
North America:
- One kit and one tool kit- $125
- Two kits and one tool kit in one box- $155

What's the VinceBar?
It's a solution that addresses the root cause to (not just the symptoms of) the dreaded "subframe" failures of the E46 chassis.

Why should I care?
Over the last couple of years it has become clear that the design of the rear axle subframe, or more specifically the way the rear axle subframe is attached to the rear of the E46 chassis, is not up to it's task. Especially in high power/torque models as the M3, 330i/d.

What is this?
This is an opportunity to collectively buy laser cut components for, or completed units of, the so called VinceBar at a reasonable cost.

OK, so what's the offer?

​Vince RACP Reinforcement Kit
http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?t=546116

Epoxy/Rivet install style VinceBar (http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?t=546116)

"Subframe fix", AKA weld install style VinceBar (mostly post #2 & #3) (http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?t=529214)

So what's new and notable?
1. Electro plated extended hardware
2. Laser cut components
3. A few design changes
4. The new kit option "Weld install style components kit"
5. The extended subframe bolts (which are key components in the VinceBar solution) are made from the high strength Chrome Nickel alloy 34CrNiMo6. I've previously coated them with a Zinc spray. Now they are professionally electro zinc plated as shown in the picture below (the shorter bolts and studs are the OEM hardware).



http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160728/6c1e3100d1d13cf5ba251cf5fa2bb2e4.jpg


Here's a recent video of a single owner, low milage (60000 miles), non "tracked" M3 that Reddish Motorsport recently posted on YouTube. This is one of many great and informative videos James Reddish has shared. Make sure to visit their YouTube channel.



http://youtu.be/oQvEkYUNPOU




All kits include the custom hardware pictured below.
(The extended subframe bolts/studs, the collar nuts and the washers)

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160729/0cd0b1a9408e483718ce2a966f2e21c5.jpg



Weld installation style VinceBar - Component kit (to be assembled/welded by the installer) $335


http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160729/de9e057ceacbbc2c90a544dc733da552.jpg


Weld installation style VinceBar - Assembled kit $450
(This is an example of the recent weld quality.)

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160730/55709ad7d8211c53006588931197253b.jpg


http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160730/a37c2ec8fbfb21185c8cecf40875b36b.jpg



Epoxy/Rivet installation style VinceBar - Assembled kit $575

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160729/08266203e2a80e3ccab705ba0de52bd6.jpg


"Tooling kits"

Weld installation style tool kit $65

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160729/cc5269e22f82bcf9112330a502caa049.jpg



Epoxy/Rivet installation style tool kit - short drill bit $90

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160729/53e1ca57aefc3230889ba9b354d681af.jpg




Content from top to bottom:

•One tube of a very versatile seam sealer that is sticky and results in a semi solid, rubberish, bond
•Two stubby paint brushes. One for the epoxy and one for the seam sealer
•One small spray bottle of POR15 metal prep, for "etching" the bonding surfaces prior to applying the epoxy
•One 51mm hole saw with a matching bore
•One drilling guide rod that fits the bore as well as the minor diameter of the M12x1,5 hole in the threaded receiver
•One 10mm drill bit (to drill through the top of the threaded receivers)
•One 4,8 mm drill bit for the large rivets
•One 3,25mm drill bit for the medium rivets
•Two 3,0mm drill bits for the smallest rivets
•One M12x1,5mm threading tap (for threading the top part of the threaded receiver)




Epoxy/Rivet installation style tool kit - long drill bit $110
(Content same as above except the 10mm drill bit is 30cm long
and will reach through the bushing while the subframe is lowered about 10-15cm)

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160729/fe303173876bf969f73fa0236122a76e.jpg



It's actually not the subframe itself (which is a sturdy tubular frame) that fails, it's the chassis panel it is attached to. This panel is commonly referred to as the Rear Axle Carrier Panel, or abbreviated, the RACP

.
Over the last couple of years there have also been a number of instances where new failures have occurred after the RACP has been reinforced using the common practice of welding, or epoxying, flat plates to the bottom side of the RACP (at the subframe mount locations).

The new failures have typically ranged from new cracks at other locations of the RACP, to very serious separation of the RACP from the rest of the chassis.


Here's one example (http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?t=530905)

And here's another (the pictures below are from the post from Jan 17th 19:43 in this thread) (http://rejsa.nu/forum/viewtopic.php?t=80547&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=168)




http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160406/52bd3cdfecd230b23cdf069e8bf3df64.jpg


http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160406/91f934be17bb061e0a412b5e6e4acd23.jpg


http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160406/647c5120aa3fcb36d3dd95a7700dfb94.jpg


So what's wrong with the design of the RACP?

The short story is that the panel itself is too weak, AND that the panel is inadequately attached to the rest of the chassis.

OR, the subframe mounts should have been positioned directly under/in the sturdy chassis legs (a wider subframe) instead of in the floor (which the RACP is). That way we wouldn't have needed to reinforce and/or relief the RACP from all, or parts of, the load.

This Is what has been done to the E9X chassis, and to my surprise, is also the case on our VW Sharan minivan (which BTW is front wheel drive).

Let's first look at the subframe mounts of the VW Sharan.
In this picture, of the right rear suspension looking towards the front of the car, you can just barely notice that the front right mount is directly behind the coil spring. And both mounts are directly under/in the chassis leg.



http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160728/06e492066f0fe26da813e212f1084a94.jpg


In this picture, facing the right rear wheel well, you can clearly see how much further out to the side of the car (that's where the chassis leg is) the VW Sharan's subframe mounts are.



http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160728/6eae99454802387fa46724d730c7720a.jpg


Here's another excellent example of how the subframe mounts are tied directly to the chassis legs. This is a E91 3-series Touring I happened to notice at a junk yard.

Fortunately someone had cut out the rear right corner of the body and chassis, leaving the subframe exposed.



http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160824/b36192c09beeb76c28b4bcfba49f84ce.jpg


Notice the chassis leg to the right in the picture. In the picture it's the white vertical "beam" just left of the center if the picture. It's running in the front/back direction and it has two clearly visible holes in it. The front one has a rubber plug/grommet in it. Notice how it starts to turn outwards (left in our viewing direction) just as it's getting covered by the harness of cables. It's taking this direction as it continues in the door sills.

Now look at the right side where the chassis leg has been removed. Can you see how the subframe mounts is sitting right below where the chassis leg used to be?

Also notice the cross section of the sill, how many layers it's made up with, and how sturdy it is.

Here's a picture of the side view that should help you understand how well the subframe mounts are placed in the E9X platform that followed the E46.



http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160824/77556c83842d18f8ab8a707d0b8146d6.jpg


Now compare this to the positions of the subframe mounts of the E46 chassis (at the outside ends of the blue subframe where you can see the circular mounts and the shiny nuts)



http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160728/dc1ce4f2020e7c34af0b8d678cfe9b95.jpg


http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160728/4f9ff62701196323d8d759abf43ad767.jpg


Notice how the rear mounts are almost all the way out to the chassis leg, but the fronts are very close to the center of the car. But both are attached to the "floor panel" (the RACP) rather than directly to the chassis leg.

The latter results in a, let's say, unfavorable and inefficient way of coupling/sending the rear axle torque load to the sturdy chassis legs (frame rails).

This is the culprit of the infamous so called "subframe issue" of the E46 ( and E36 afaik).

In technical terms this (the path the load needs to take) is referred to as the "load path".

The design of the E46 chassis forces the load to take a "detour" on it's way, from the subframe mount, to the chassis leg. And it's taking that detour via the flimsy, 0.75mm sheet metal of the RACP.

Here's a picture of the underside of the rear part of the E46 chassis. In this picture I've outlined the chassis leg in red.

Notice the dashed line directly outside of the rear mounts, this is where the RACP is NOT connected to the chassis leg.

Here it's only attached to the outside perimeter of the chassis leg. And this is what makes the design even worse as the load now has to take a detour through most of the RACP on its way to the chassis leg.




In this post (http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showpost.php?p=1067164063&postcount=2) I have described the situation of the rear mounts both in text and with sketches/drawings.


In addition I've used the picture directly below to illustrate the unfavorable load path.


http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160727/9bad12ab9919ec8e073c2137a1c0df5b.jpg



And below you'll find another excellent video from Reddish Automotive. It illustrates the effect of that unfavorable load path (from about 01:00 and on).





http://youtu.be/ubP7ustvRXs




IMHO, this video (credit to James of Reddish) clearly illustrates why the rear bar is needed. The rear bar relieves the RACP from most of the load which is causing the stress, that in turn, causes these popped spot welds and cracks.

The rear cross bar simply "sends" the load to the chassis legs without it having to pass through the RACP's areas of flimsy sheetmetal and spot welds.

And a few more pictures further down to illustrate failures of the RACP attachments to the rest of the chassis.


OK, so what does the VinceBar solution actually do, and how does it work?

The VinceBar solution is actually made up of two major components:
1. The front "gusset cups" (formerly known as "pipe gussets")
2. The rear cross bar (the VinceBar itself)
3. The front gusset cups address the very common (but unfortunately not very commonly known) cracking of the top side of the front mounts.




http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160728/2d9efaa0aef593d9b0c14b92983240cd.jpg


http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160728/387806afddba45a1d462e0d60208712c.jpg


These cracks stem from a combination of:
a. The lateral forces from the control arms (side to side forces from the rear wheels during cornering)
b. The vertical forces, mainly the upward compression force, from the subframe bushing area.

The front cups address these cracks by reinforcing the RACP, distributing the load to the rear seat floor, and clamping the reinforcement to the RACP via a through bolt design.



http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160728/08a2c7a03e9dc3e157a4695475f598c0.jpg



**Group Buy Ends 9/18/16**
GotZHP
08-28-2016, 06:57 PM
Wait, so the price is $125? Is it a flat rate or does it differ for weld in vs epoxy?
WOLFN8TR
08-28-2016, 07:12 PM
Wait, so the price is $125? Is it a flat rate or does it differ for weld in vs epoxy?

No thats just the shipping info.
GotZHP
08-28-2016, 08:16 PM
Yeah... missed the first part there. Still pretty pricey but it does look like a good kit
BADCLOWN
08-29-2016, 06:02 AM
How susceptible is the ZHP to this, I haven't read of very many guys doing these reinforcements Or having issues. Obviously and more popular are the M3 cars needing these.
WOLFN8TR
08-29-2016, 06:30 AM
How susceptible is the ZHP to this, I haven't read of very many guys doing these reinforcements Or having issues. Obviously and more popular are the M3 cars needing these.

Here is a quote from Vince when I asked him if this was for all E46 Chassis. I do believe the subframe damage is more prevalent on the M3 because of the horsepower difference and the torque being applied to the rear end. Ofcourse ZHP's and 330's that are located in the snow belt areas might eventually have issues and benefit from this kit.



As far as I know (by comparing part numbers and looking at pictures) it'll fit coupes, sedans and tourings.
Sedans and tourings are however yet to be confirmed by actually installing the kit.

Member Slater (who is BTW also a member of ZHPMAFIA) has volunteered to test it on his personal ZHP (sedan obviously), and the rear end I've gotten as a development platform is also a sedan. So I'll be testing it as soon as I receive the components.

I've also started a discussion with a local guy who has a 318i touring which he's planning on converting to a 328i with a turbo along with a M3 rear axle.

As he'll certainly need to reinforce the rear end, and the VinceBar kit is perfect for preserving the luggage space of a touring, I'm pretty sure I'll very soon be making a deal with him to be able to test and verify that the kit fits the touring as well.

As for the verts it looks like there will need to be a slight revision of the front gusset cups. This is due to the bulkhead that sits right above the front mounts. I don't believe it'll be very difficult, but I'm pretty sure there will need to be special cups for the verts.

I've also located a local M3 vert and will probably be meeting with the owner next week.

I'm not sure about the E46 compact, but I don't believe you have them in the US, do you?
Sockethead
08-29-2016, 07:36 PM
I'd be in for the welded version if I didn't just spend a shitload on a TS supercharger...Even though my car is new enough to have the factory reinforcement piece, I'd still like to have more support back there
WOLFN8TR
08-30-2016, 05:51 AM
Probably a good idea with a supercharger. [emoji106]
BADCLOWN
08-30-2016, 06:01 AM
Wouldn't hurt, turbo would be more violent/more of a necessity in that case.



Fwiw: I want a TS.........or a s54..........or the best of both at the same time
RUS_ZHP
08-30-2016, 07:09 AM
Thank you for posting it here. I've never heard about this kit before.
If there will be a group buy, I'll go with assembled weld kit.
Last year I got a complementary inspection from Turner Motorsport and by my surprise I saw micro cracks on the sheet. metal. They are very tiny, but I thinks it's a matter of time, when they start to propagate. My car is 03 with unknown history before my ownership.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
WOLFN8TR
08-30-2016, 01:26 PM
Thank you for posting it here. I've never heard about this kit before.
If there will be a group buy, I'll go with assembled weld kit.
Last year I got a complementary inspection from Turner Motorsport and by my surprise I saw micro cracks on the sheet. metal. They are very tiny, but I thinks it's a matter of time, when they start to propagate. My car is 03 with unknown history before my ownership.

Welcome...

There is a group buy that ends 9/18/16 here: http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?t=551862
slater
08-31-2016, 07:19 AM
thanks for posting, gary! i've been away in haiti for 8 days and am just catching up on this now.

to answer other's questions (and to resonate with RUS_ZHP), it is definitely possible for our cars to succumb to this, mine is case in point. vince's solution is phenomenal and as i intend to keep my car indefinitely, i am going for it.

the epoxy- and rivet-on kit is, according to vince, the stronger of the two kits - and definitely easier to install (especially if you don't own a welder ;)).

:cheers
WOLFN8TR
09-01-2016, 01:21 PM
Thanks for posting, gary! I've been away in Haiti for 8 days and I'am just catching up on this now.

The epoxy- and rivet-on kit is, according to vince, the stronger of the two kits - and definitely easier to install (especially if you don't own a welder ;)).

:cheers

Welcome...Looking forward to seeing how the install goes. I might be purchasing an epoxy set here soon before the GB is over on 9/18.
RUS_ZHP
09-01-2016, 02:14 PM
thanks for posting, gary! i've been away in haiti for 8 days and am just catching up on this now.

to answer other's questions (and to resonate with RUS_ZHP), it is definitely possible for our cars to succumb to this, mine is case in point. vince's solution is phenomenal and as i intend to keep my car indefinitely, i am going for it.

the epoxy- and rivet-on kit is, according to vince, the stronger of the two kits - and definitely easier to install (especially if you don't own a welder ;)).

:cheers
If epoxy is stronger, I might consider going with this option. Somehow I missed that in the thread.
I was thinking about subframe reinforcement for sometime now. And i was leaning towards Turner kit intil i saw this discussion.
My friend has a welder, but honestly I'd rather go with the epoxy, but for some reason I was sceptical about epoxy application.
I am definitely will have to do more research over the weekend.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
Sockethead
09-01-2016, 03:40 PM
epoxy bonds to a much larger surface area. When welding you can only go around the perimeter and a few rosette welds
Dual
09-02-2016, 03:29 AM
So the epoxy kit would probably involve lower installation labor costs? (There's no way I can undertake either project myself).
slater
09-02-2016, 06:14 AM
If epoxy is stronger, I might consider going with this option. Somehow I missed that in the thread.
I was thinking about subframe reinforcement for sometime now. And i was leaning towards Turner kit intil i saw this discussion.
My friend has a welder, but honestly I'd rather go with the epoxy, but for some reason I was sceptical about epoxy application.
I am definitely will have to do more research over the weekend.

see rob's and my responses below!

i wouldn't use the turner kit, personally - does not cover enough surface area, and does not address the root of the problem. ;) do you have any cracks now?



epoxy bonds to a much larger surface area. When welding you can only go around the perimeter and a few rosette welds

correct. epoxy + rivets = extremely strong (using the epoxy that vince specs, as not all epoxies are equal). also, vince's upcoming 'VincePlates' (if they materialize) will cover a much larger surface area than even the redish plates, and will be an epoxy- and rivet-on installation. i'm waiting for these for my car.



So the epoxy kit would probably involve lower installation labor costs? (There's no way I can undertake either project myself).

yes - if you don't have any pre-existing cracks (which i would be surprised about on a post-10/2004 car), you can install this without even dropping the rear subframe and suspension. you do have to lower it about 3", but everything remains connected to the car (save rear shocks), which means a lot less labor.

:cheers
WOLFN8TR
09-02-2016, 06:43 AM
Here is the "Vince Plates" he is working on.

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160902/bcca7a59388113adade334bb2042acc5.jpg

And some of the parts needed for the reinforcement kit came in.


http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160902/c967e6860c1cbb1c7dcdf0d4371636a3.jpg
slater
09-02-2016, 06:55 AM
thanks gary, didn't see that post yet. :)
WOLFN8TR
09-02-2016, 09:55 AM
Welcome...[emoji106]


Below please find some pictures from the installation I'm currently working on.

This is a pristine (i was actually pleasantly surprised with how well kept it is) -02 with approximately 62500 miles on it.

The owner contacted me after finding the usual hairline crack:

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160831/e2e0d2c55828c001772da080bbb3812a.jpg

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160831/dfb8463539cb11ca8d4de1d1550c251e.jpg

And once the underside was cleaned a couple of popped spot welds were clearly visible as well (top middle of the picture):

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160831/cbb572704209e2fedb3fa3de18942fe3.jpg

There is also a, hardly noticeable, separation at the connection between the RACP and the wheel well:

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160831/e9f2e4899b22598afedbe043bc027c94.jpg

And once the underside was cleaned, the two popped spot welds responsible for that separation were clearly visible (one at the lower left corner of the picture, and one at the top right:

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160831/76ffbcd14add723d014f8f30b57c9d4e.jpg

We didn't believe there was any damage to the front right mount, but once the rear axle was removed and the underside was cleaned, we found this:

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160831/fc160d2bc16d5c4171fa5b8f16374c1e.jpg

A surprisingly bad crack at the right, and the typical semi circular hairline crack around the mounting hole where the hex piece of the stud rests against the RACP.

And after I'd cut open the access to the topside of the right front mount I was just about to tell the owner of the car that this was the first car I've seen that was not cracked at the top. But then I looked closer and found this:

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160831/f6bedca878708a2d08857db3f1f0ec3c.jpg

The right slot has cracks at the top left and bottom right corners.

So the owner caught this in just the right time to make it an easy repair/reinforcement project.

Oh, and the laser cutting guy told me today that the tubes are done![emoji106][emoji322]

So we'll be picking them up tomorrow and I'll assemble the first epoxy/rivet kit (that'll go into this car). I'll share some pics of that tomorrow.
RUS_ZHP
09-02-2016, 11:14 AM
..... do you have any cracks now?


Yes, I do have a few small hairline cracks, which definitely should be addressed.
GotZHP
09-02-2016, 01:15 PM
I followed a few threads on e46f and a M3 forum about the difference between welding and epoxy kits. Epoxy is def the way to go. As said earlier, much greater surface area to bond. I'll try and find the thread I was reading, Very informative. While my car is out of action I am going to go under the rear end and inspect. Thinking the time to do this would be when replacing rear suspension.

How long is the group buy offer on the table?
WOLFN8TR
09-02-2016, 05:25 PM
GB Ends 9/18/16
DeathTrap
09-03-2016, 07:34 PM
This is interesting. Any idea of the price for the plates? I read that we could order the bar now and wait for the plates to cut down on shipping.

Sent using VTEC, yo
WOLFN8TR
09-03-2016, 07:44 PM
Not sure as Vince is still working on fabricating them. I will shoot him a PM and find out.
WOLFN8TR
09-04-2016, 06:34 AM
Here is the info on the "Vince Plates".


As they will be laser cut I can't yet give you a date on their availability. But I will be taking early orders from those who are buying the VinceBar kits. And my plan is to offer a package deal of some sort. Hopefully I'll be able to present this late next week.


In the meantime, here are a couple of pics showing the current progress on the first layer of the left rear "plate".


http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160904/c1795ec21308d864593fa2cf08bcab54.jpg


http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160904/64599c6d00d5eab960cf210df5e83d00.jpg
sillieidiot
09-06-2016, 09:14 AM
Finally he's working on the plates. He told me about this a long time ago so that's why I've just been waiting lol I also need it see his X-brace implementation too so I have to keep on waiting. Luckily I haven't driven my car at all so it's fine.
DeathTrap
09-06-2016, 04:25 PM
X-brace??

My wallet is about to go on a serious diet.
WOLFN8TR
09-06-2016, 04:58 PM
Update:


I got a little bit more done today.
Heres a pic of a second layer to the left rear mount. My objective is to primarily add material where the failures occur, and to obtain a digressive plate thickness towards the perimeters. There will be epoxy between the layers, and rivets to clamp them together, as well as tie the plate layers to the bases of the threaded receivers.

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160906/a4e79ada09ccf27a7e5f2a8603fd9e5e.jpg

This picture shows how I've made a small indentation to make the inner layer sit tight against the indentation of the RACP. There will then be a rivet tying into the mounting point of the threaded receiver (to which the spot welds attach on post feb 2000 built E46's).

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160906/3025efc5b787b74961e4639a19b4eb76.jpg

Here's a pic of the spot welds mentioned above.

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160906/4fba7f207f383c822023b55648b974d0.jpg

The first VincePlate set is installed!

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160907/1642d4a2ff7644afad222f85d83bdb47.jpg


http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160907/5d763bf171fa13d16360a1b650f7540a.jpg


http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160907/7c765fe69a36a0fc71fe119ac588df9f.jpghttp://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160907/58e7bc6997822e8bcf3fece98499fc96.jpg


http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160907/79be24cb1afd48b71b3c6365a70ffd21.jpg
WOLFN8TR
09-12-2016, 09:13 AM
Reminder the 18th is the last day to get in on the Group Buy to save your subframe from impending DOOM! :rofl

50% deposit to lock yourself in on the GB!
slater
09-12-2016, 09:22 AM
Reminder the 18th is the last day to get in on the Group Buy to save your subframe from impending DOOM! :rofl

50% deposit to lock yourself in on the GB!

LOL.

(although i laughed.... it's totally serious.)

you in, gary?

:cheers
WOLFN8TR
09-12-2016, 09:32 AM
Yes Sir... :cheers
slater
09-12-2016, 10:28 AM
Yes Sir... :cheers

awww yeah! :cheers
WOLFN8TR
09-15-2016, 07:15 PM
Guys 9/18 the end of the Group Buy! We are one away from hitting the 15% discount tier!! [emoji2]
slater
09-16-2016, 03:56 AM
Guys tomorrow is the end of the Group Buy! We are one away from hitting the 15% discount tier!! [emoji2]

yes! someone join in! (trevor??????)

(and gary, we need to rally here for VincePlate interest, too :) ).
WOLFN8TR
09-16-2016, 05:29 AM
Ya I really want the plates!!
WOLFN8TR
09-18-2016, 10:03 AM
We hit the 15% Discount! The GB ends 9/18 at midnight EST. Time to jump in on this guys!
slater
09-19-2016, 02:36 AM
trevor joined! :) :cheers
WOLFN8TR
09-19-2016, 08:42 AM
Nice!
WOLFN8TR
01-07-2017, 09:48 PM
Bump...
slater
01-08-2017, 05:26 AM
still waiting for my bar and plates. :) vince said they should be ready to ship in a couple of weeks, he was waiting to get a batch of bolts coated, if i remember correctly?
WOLFN8TR
01-08-2017, 10:15 AM
Yep I just talked to him about mine and he said next week sometime. He is also building the reinforcement plates that will be available in February. I'm getting those as well.
Sockethead
01-08-2017, 04:19 PM
Can't wait to see how this turns out!
slater
01-08-2017, 07:04 PM
Can't wait to see how this turns out!

yeah, it makes a lot of sense - redirecting the load path to the rear frame rails. vince himself has a SC'd M3 making well over 400hp and has had zero issues with his car with this setup (he tracks the car, too).
holyc0w
03-14-2017, 12:53 PM
I'm thinking about this. The main concern is finding a place for installation. Does anyone know places within the Midwest or maybe a bit farther out, that would be able to do this. And what do you think it would cost?
WOLFN8TR
03-14-2017, 01:54 PM
I bet it would cost anywhere from $700-$1000 for the install.
sillieidiot
03-17-2017, 01:22 PM
I think it would cost more than that. I think it's like 1k just to like weld the plates normally. This has more work involved.
holyc0w
03-19-2017, 03:54 PM
I would think more too, maybe $1,000 - 2,000. Nevertheless, I have to find somebody first.
WOLFN8TR
03-19-2017, 06:06 PM
Wow I was WAY off! :rolleyes
WOLFN8TR
03-25-2017, 08:34 PM
Here's an update on the progress of the VinceSkins.


1. I've decided how to package the different sized skins into "stages". Please see the sample pictures below.
Although the layers can be customized to the liking of the buyer, the layers will need to be matched to each other.
So in the interest of keeping this fairly simple I'll be building and stocking these standard "stages". Anything else will be custom.


2. I've updated (to match the layers/stages shown below) and finished the paper templates for the rear right mount.


These sample pictures are of the rear left mount. The skins are not welded as they'll be used as final templates for the CAD models.


The stages are intended for the span: new/undamaged/minor hairline cracks -> cracks and damage over a larger area


Stage 1


https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170324/c92ab073f491984e9594c1786c460d62.jpg


Stage 2


https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170324/0c3c3c8f7114863fbe60f05524e5a248.jpg


Stage 3


https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170324/41d5e16ca375b4cfe1043310fe577fbf.jpg


Stage 4


https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170324/405b6d562d16001a1786c915114fddf0.jpg


A potential stage 5 (if there's interest/need for such) would be like the prototypes I installed earlier in this thread.


EDIT: something like this


https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170324/d4fd6420e9b63f8e6ff1b353565b33e9.jpg
slater
04-11-2017, 01:23 PM
gary, did you get your VinceBar yet?

mine is delayed a bit, as vince is building a 'Touring-specific' test bar for my Touring (since i'm not installing in my sedan any longer). he says it will be an easier install (awesome), and still fit under the interior floor panels of the Touring. awesome.
WOLFN8TR
04-11-2017, 05:39 PM
No not yet, I'm waiting for the Vince Plates.
slater
04-11-2017, 06:46 PM
No not yet, I'm waiting for the Vince Plates.

nice. i'm waiting for my set of those as well.
Sockethead
04-12-2017, 06:12 AM
Can't wait for both of your reviews of this installation...
WOLFN8TR
05-20-2017, 04:55 PM
VinceSkinz now available!!! :applause




I've now come far enough in the development of the VinceSkinz (fka VincePlates) that I feel it's time to share what I'm up to.


Here are some pictures of the "Stage 1" skinz that'll hopefully help catch your interest.


https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170520/7de7a748da5c44b68cf5c3ad8acd7600.jpg


https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170520/5a39cd3866d4b88a9bfc6698d9f4d307.jpg


https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170520/28c9561a275e6456af0e6ca64e485862.jpg


https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170520/8786b33fc436dbc6e962c940c771c5aa.jpg


And here are a couple of pictures of the front "Stage 2" skinz


https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170520/3415b79701c15ef3de2b4b0f26f02357.jpg


https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170520/aca0f177060d30adf3932724ea59ab35.jpg


https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170520/34928d1dfda6e051ef226bb0036af311.jpg


https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170520/8582323da6d962c816f17c55c5a6894e.jpg


https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170520/e5acfadad1ffcbd366dbe9e592087543.jpg


And here's the story.


While repairing and reinforcing my personal M3 http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?p=1067164063 I really wanted to get something better than just a plate to cover the existing cracks.


Ideally I wanted something that was more of a "cup" rather than a plate. Something that would fit snugly against the RACP and essentially add more thickness to it.


The closest I could find where the Redish plates. So I got them.


They are a great product, but while welding them to my RACP I kept thinking about that "cup" option. And could there be a way to avoid this welding mess while still securing the plate/cup to the threaded receiver inside the RACP?


After thinking about this for a long time, and having developed the Epoxy/Rivet version of the VinceBar kit, I felt I had figured it out. While also addressed a few issues not yet covered, as well as introducing a couple of "Industry firsts".


So I decided to develop what I called the VincePlates at that time.


As some of you already know, you can read more about the background and early development in this thread http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?t=552534


If your impatient jump to post #28


So lets talk about the design itself.


This application is designed primarily for epoxy/rivet installation. Mostly because I feel there's really no such design commercially available today (at least not that I've seen), and because I really believe it's very beneficial to not have to weld. And thus not have to deal with the heat related consequences associated with welding.


That said, it'll certainly be possible to weld these on as well.


(While talking about epoxied plates, I have been asked multiple times if it would be possible to remove previously installed plates and move to the VinceSkinz.
If you currently have TMS style plates epoxied they should come off fairly smoothly with the use of a powerful heat gun. And after some cleaning up you should be good to install a set of VinceSkinz in a Stage of your choice.)


Unique features.


The VinceSkinz design offers these major benefits (which I believe have not previously been commercially available):


1. No welding required (but possible) - The VinceSkinz are designed with epoxy and rivets in mind. This means they can be installed without needing a welder. Thus potentially cutting cost (if youd need to hite a welder) and avoiding all heat related issues it also offers a clean and DIY friendly installation.
* The rivets secure the skinz to the base plate of the threaded receiver, as well as to all dual layer sheet metal areas in reach of the particular skin.
* The epoxy bonds the entire surface of the skin to the mating surface of the RACP. This adds thickness to the RACP as no gaps are present between the two.
* Welding is naturally still an option. The Vince Skinz should in fact be a lot easier to weld to the RACP as the sheet metal thicknesses are so much closer to each other. The rivet holes would be enlarged to accommodate plug welds.


2. Pre formed - The Vince Skinz are pre formed to snuggly fit against the RACP.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170520/760bf98c3b0017f60be230d29db31085.jpg
In addition to very efficiently utilizing the material (saving weight) by using a thinner skin which is tightly bonded to the RACP to provide exceptional strength, this also saves a lot of time during installation. And it makes the installation much easier then for instance having to form a plates during installation.


3. Smother stress transition - By using thinner sheet metal (1mm), and thinning the perimeters even further


(Notice how the perimeter has been ground at an angle in this picture)
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170520/18bcea53491a0821a4d6b3ec384cad0c.jpg
there's no large step in thickness (going from the sub 1mm RACP skin to a 2mm or 3mm or more in some cases). Large steps create harmful stress concentrations that are prone to fatigue failure. Especially if that perimeter also has been welded and the material is weakened by the local heat from the weld.


So smoothening the stress transition is beneficial in terms of fatigue.


Thanks to the multi layer option (bullet 5 below) where each layer has a coverage difference which results in multiple thickness transitions
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170520/ec1b2acca9f2ce4c1d2e9eeb51027be5.jpg
this smooth stress transition is preserved even at larger total skin thickness.


4. Multiple sizes - In an effort to address damage of varying degrees while at the same time minimizing the impact on the chassis and the labor required, the VinceSkinz come in different sizes and coverage.
If cracks are found at an early stage,


https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170520/7a62619f1ca3cbffb5192ca596367c71.jpg


https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170520/55ed2bc50e0fe1184acf494e38227e18.jpg


https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170520/731f3809bd81ff4223d41d111a9994de.jpg


AND the VinceBar kit (or an equivalent RACP load reliving option) is installed along with the VinceSkinz, there's no need to install large skinz.


However, if the damage has gone so far that the cracks reach beyond the immediate vicinity of the mounting surface, and/or material is even missing from the RACP


https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170520/6a730fdccb7dce457aa70b58cab6f554.jpg


Notice how the crack runs all the way to the end of the RACP skin to the right in this picture.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170520/91da0512035c64a6e273d1775f0cc5ef.jpg
There's a VinceSkin that addresses this as well
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170520/7258926455f0520ff2a7969077475f09.jpg


https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170520/e41fa4ab59d42d0be6d879ec70e15ed1.jpg


https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170520/2050f99d7e6f3c328464ec6dee3692dd.jpg


https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170520/4c68e7b68ae61a14906c857780b5c440.jpg


https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170520/3c2784f5af340a9853896c1c32351e99.jpg


https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170520/749375a63396e172d68de8da1c0f0494.jpg


This is the pre feb 2000 build date issue
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170520/9ace067c14c2f2490e33604ff1af9be7.jpg


There are various VinceSkin stages that addresses this as well.


5. Multilayer option - For anyone who wants/needs maximum strength, or needs to cover areas where the RACP may have holes, the VinceSkinz are designed to allow multiple layers.


The multi layer design of the VinceSkins provide:
• A very close fit against the underside of the RACP (hence "skins" rather than plates) made possible by the thinner sheet metal in each layer
• Digressive plate thickness providing a smooth stress transition
• Flexibility in terms of coverage and protection. Larger skins with more coverage for old RACP with existing cracks, and smaller skins for pristine, or replaced, RACP's with minimal or no cracks.
• Ability to mix and match skin layers to accommodate any special needs


TBC