pulleys

[mr hish]

so today i ordered the light weight pulleys for my zhp from ecstuning.com cant wait for them to arrive i want to see the difference they make on my zhp.

[PKR]

I'm all in for the details ...

[Hornung418]

Unless they are a larger diameter, they really won't do much. The added benefit is they are made of aluminium so they won't have to be changed for the life of the car.

[mikeyb74]

What brand pulleys did you order?

[mr hish]

i ordered the one ecs has on their website , their brand is ecs? are they good?

[mikeyb74]

I didn't know they were branding pulleys. Last time I looked they were selling UUC pulleys.

[Scorpius]

I've never really looked into pulleys before. Can someone tell me their benefit? As I understand it they are lighter (will aluminum really hold up better than steel?)
I also understand the underdrive certain things. What is under/over driven with the pulleys and what does this impact? I surely would hate to tear something up or make it wear out or put something else at risk if it's designed around a certain expected speed. (perhaps it doesnt matter) pros/cons ??

Thanks in advance for any education provided .

[danewilson77]

I've never really looked into pulleys before. Can someone tell me their benefit? As I understand it they are lighter (will aluminum really hold up better than steel?)
I also understand the underdrive certain things. What is under/over driven with the pulleys and what does this impact? I surely would hate to tear something up or make it wear out or put something else at risk if it's designed around a certain expected speed. (perhaps it doesnt matter) pros/cons ??

Thanks in advance for any education provided .

They won't impact anything negatively....though some say power steering is affected.

They basically give up less losses to pulley utilities > more power to the wheels.

[Scorpius]

They won't impact anything negatively....though some say power steering is affected.

They basically give up less losses to pulley utilities > more power to the wheels.

Probably a good item to do at the time of putting on a new belt. Which is in my next 10k future (i.e. before years end)

[Hermes]

From TMS:

"As used on our racecars and street cars, these are engineered not only to be the best pulley kits on the market but also to provide the best compromise between performance and reliability. Specifically, we have designed them to underdrive the water pump, power steering pump and alternator*. Adding these is like getting FREE HORSEPOWER - there are no downsides and underdriving each of these accessories has been proven safe through years of on and off-track use. We do not believe it is safe to change the crankshaft pulley due to the potential harm to the crankshaft. These kits provide a 10%-20% overall reduction in driving your car's systems and have been dyno-tested with a gain of up to 11hp.

Kit includes water pump, power steering, alternator pulleys and belt. The T-6061 hard anodized aluminum pulleys account for a 10 to 20-percent decrease in accessory speeds, reducing the load on the engine but still maintaining a safe margin for reliability on all components. Installation involves removing the fan for easy access to the front of the engine. The main drive belt comes off easy and each pulley is mounted with Allen head bolts. Typical installation time is 1.5 hours. New main drive belt is included. The pulleys were good for 10.7hp at 6960 rpm and 8.1 lb-ft of torque at 5550 on the 1995 M3."

There are others. Just to give you an idea of what they do

[webster]

From TMS:

"As used on our racecars and street cars, these are engineered not only to be the best pulley kits on the market but also to provide the best compromise between performance and reliability. Specifically, we have designed them to underdrive the water pump, power steering pump and alternator*. Adding these is like getting FREE HORSEPOWER - there are no downsides and underdriving each of these accessories has been proven safe through years of on and off-track use. We do not believe it is safe to change the crankshaft pulley due to the potential harm to the crankshaft. These kits provide a 10%-20% overall reduction in driving your car's systems and have been dyno-tested with a gain of up to 11hp.

Kit includes water pump, power steering, alternator pulleys and belt. The T-6061 hard anodized aluminum pulleys account for a 10 to 20-percent decrease in accessory speeds, reducing the load on the engine but still maintaining a safe margin for reliability on all components. Installation involves removing the fan for easy access to the front of the engine. The main drive belt comes off easy and each pulley is mounted with Allen head bolts. Typical installation time is 1.5 hours. New main drive belt is included. The pulleys were good for 10.7hp at 6960 rpm and 8.1 lb-ft of torque at 5550 on the 1995 M3."

There are others. Just to give you an idea of what they do

not bad for $250. do ZHPs have bosch or valeo alternators?

[danewilson77]

not bad for $250. do ZHPs have bosch or valeo alternators?

Could be either.....You will have to look.

[Hornung418]

Just pull the air box and check.

My 2 cents now that we're discussing UD pulleys: I've had mine installed for over 5k miles. I went with Rogue Engineering; partly due to cost, and partly due to availability. It seems that no one has these in stock! So my impressions are skewed because I've got some other things going on under the hood, but it definitely is a much better drive. Not as loose as it was when stock. The throttle is much more responsive and I've definitely made power to the wheels. The construction is solid and much more durable than the current stock pulleys.

So on to the case of the weight. It will has no effect on anything. It's all a marketing ploy, lighter is the same as heavy it all spins at the same rate because it's driven from the circumference. It would be a different story if it was driven from the origin of the pulley. I wouldn't suggest TMS because they lighten the ALT pulley, which is unnecessary...just keep it stock. The pulleys from RE were $185 + s&h, no ALT Pulley included.

[Scorpius]

Thinking I may see a pulley system in my near future. Seeing I'm 161k miles what other things should I replace? Tensioner pulley, idler pulley? Are there more than those two? Do the lit weight puppies come with torque specs? I torque everything.

[danewilson77]

Thinking I may see a pulley system in my near future. Seeing I'm 161k miles what other things should I replace? Tensioner pulley, idler pulley? Are there more than those two? Do the lit weight puppies come with torque specs? I torque everything.

Two tensioners and an idler/deflection pulley.


Water pump and idler

http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?model=EV53&mospid=47725&btnr=11_2190&hg=11&fg=18

http://i1015.photobucket.com/albums/af278/nicee46/Maintenance%20and%20Misc/226.png

AC

http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?model=EV53&mospid=47725&btnr=11_2263&hg=11&fg=18

http://i1015.photobucket.com/albums/af278/nicee46/Maintenance%20and%20Misc/29.png

[kayger12]

Not a bad idea to replace the water pump pulley while you're at it. Mine was damn brittle for 6 years old and <60k miles.

[johnrando]

Bought mine from Turner, just hadn't installed yet. Soon, and will report back.

[mr hish]

well seems that i made a good choice buying those pullies :D hope they arrive soon

[Scorpius]

Not a bad idea to replace the water pump pulley while you're at it. Mine was damn brittle for 6 years old and <60k miles.

man...these pulleys will turn out to be a good 500.00 job lol. not to mention i hear the water pump is a severe weak point in the system for our cars. no issues with mine yet, but if i'm doing the pulley on it, may as well pull the pump while my wrenches are near it .

[Hornung418]

Guys...the underdrive pulleys replace the Water Pump Pulley and the Power Steering Pulley. The alternator pulley is pointless to replace with anything but OEM.

Total is $185-250 plus Shipping.

[3ZHPGUY]

I installed my Turner Under Drive Pulleys in March of 2009 and love them. Turner offered two different alternator sizes. The one was a closer to stock and was recommended for someone running a high power amplifier. I probably picked up over 10 HP and a documented 2.3 miles per gallon. The change was the most significant change I have ever felt. I feel it's a perfect upgrade, completely transparent and does the job nicely.

I did the job myself and the alternator is a royal pain in the ass. You need an impact gun to get the bolt broken free and off the alternator, and if I remember correctly there is a bushing sleeve around the bottom bolt that need to be tapped in or out with a small hammer. I did not unplug the alternator and did everything under the hood. Other than that it's not bad, had her back together in a few hours.

[johnrando]

Good info, thanks!

[kayger12]

Just some related info.

I really wanted an aluminum pulley for the water pump, but wasn't interested in underdrives (or the slightly smaller pulley that ECS sells).

Ended up tracking down a stock sized aluminum one on the Bav Auto site.

It said they were out of stock, but allowed me to order. I ordered it on July 3rd.

It finally just came today.

Did a lot of searching and this is the only place I could find a stock size aluminum pulley.

Just wanted to get the info on here in the event anyone was searching for one.

Droid X. Tapatalk. Use it.

[danewilson77]

Just some related info.

I really wanted an aluminum pulley for the water pump, but wasn't interested in underdrives (or the slightly smaller pulley that ECS sells).

Ended up tracking down a stock sized aluminum one on the Bav Auto site.

It said they were out of stock, but allowed me to order. I ordered it on July 3rd.

It finally just came today.

Did a lot of searching and this is the only place I could find a stock size aluminum pulley.

Just wanted to get the info on here in the event anyone was searching for one.

Droid X. Tapatalk. Use it.

Thanks KG

HTC Thunderbolt+TT

[mikeyb74]

KG what was the brand of the water pump pulley?

[kayger12]

KG what was the brand of the water pump pulley?

URO

[zj96sc]

I've always thought to myself that if another 10HP and 3MPG were so simple, transparent, and free, why wouldn't it come like this from the manufacturer? There has to be a reason they chose to draw the amount of power off the engine that they chose to draw if the change were as simple as a few pulleys.

Dunno....just something that always popped in my head any time i heard someone raving about underdrive pulleys. Certainly not doubting the gains, but just wondering if they may be at the expense of something less obvious.


So on to the case of the weight. It will has no effect on anything. It's all a marketing ploy, lighter is the same as heavy it all spins at the same rate because it's driven from the circumference. It would be a different story if it was driven from the origin of the pulley. I wouldn't suggest TMS because they lighten the ALT pulley, which is unnecessary...just keep it stock. The pulleys from RE were $185 + s&h, no ALT Pulley included.

This isn't entirely accurate - if the pulley weighs less, its rotational inertia will be lower reducing the power required to spin it and to change it's momentum.

[Hornung418]

Understand that the majority of mass is on the circumference of the pulley and that lightening the middle is pointless, because it's not being driven from the center of the pulley.

[echo46]

As preventive maintenance, I just replaced all three pulleys with INA/Dayco. I had trouble locating the AC pulley and ultimately had to go to Advanced Auto and purchase the Dayco pulley. WHen I tried to order the AC pulley from Pelican Parts they indicated that I had to replace the entire tensioner and pulley together? Weird. Anyway, I also did the belts. Never thought about replacing with the aluminum. Maybe next time.

[zj96sc]

where it is being driven from has no impact on the moment of inertia about the pulley center. if the pulley weighs less, it will draw less power to turn. if the weight savings are closer to the center of the pulley this will make the savings less effective, but the pulley will ultimately take less (albeit a smaller amount proportionally) power to spin.

splitting hairs but just trying to be accurate.

/nerdery

[mikeyb74]

URO

The current brand of pulleys on mine.

[kayger12]

The current brand of pulleys on mine.

Nice. Worth the wait for me. Literally could not find them anywhere else.

Droid X. Tapatalk. Use it.

[Newjack]

As preventive maintenance, I just replaced all three pulleys with INA/Dayco. I had trouble locating the AC pulley and ultimately had to go to Advanced Auto and purchase the Dayco pulley. WHen I tried to order the AC pulley from Pelican Parts they indicated that I had to replace the entire tensioner and pulley together? Weird. Anyway, I also did the belts. Never thought about replacing with the aluminum. Maybe next time.

Yeah you can't buy just the OEM AC pulley. You have to get the tensioner mechanism with it too. Kayger looked for just an OEM pulley for a while but couldn't find one.

[Hornung418]

No you can get it from Advance, as stated in post 29.

[M0nk3y]

So, overall impression of pulleys....worth the price?

I'm thinking of going the RE Kit as well for the E46M

[echo46]

Yea, I went to Advanced Auto and purchased the Dayco AC pulley, if I remember correctly #89133?

[kayger12]

Yep- family search hooked me up with one. Got it on Amazon for about $15.

Droid X. Tapatalk. Use it.

[Hornung418]

So, overall impression of pulleys....worth the price?

I'm thinking of going the RE Kit as well for the E46M
Dane and Kpro can vouch. Car is MUCH more responsive. George (VA330Ci) got the RE kit, too.

[johnrando]

I've always thought to myself that if another 10HP and 3MPG were so simple, transparent, and free, why wouldn't it come like this from the manufacturer? There has to be a reason they chose to draw the amount of power off the engine that they chose to draw if the change were as simple as a few pulleys. .....



I understand the thought process behind this thinking... but realize that all manufacturers make decisions and yes, compromises on performance vs. durability vs. build quality vs. maintenance vs. cost to manufacturer, etc. You get the point. The decision by BMW here was for durability/reliability, while still providing "acceptable" performance from what I've gathered reading the forums.

[zj96sc]

So if that logic holds true, then that would imply that underdrive pulleys negatively impact the durability and reliability of your engine...making them not desirable, right? My point was just......if all are raving that there are no negative consequences...BMW either gave up on 10 free HP and 3 free MPG...or there are negative consequences.

[Hornung418]

Negative consequences are a slower spinning water pump and firmer steering. There's nothing else to it. That's the issue with producing a car for the generally lazy and non enthusiastic population.

[johnrando]

So if that logic holds true, then that would imply that underdrive pulleys negatively impact the durability and reliability of your engine...making them not desirable, right? My point was just......if all are raving that there are no negative consequences...BMW either gave up on 10 free HP and 3 free MPG...or there are negative consequences.

Well, if you had the potential to have to repair these under warranty, and let's say the difference was 90% reliability vs. 80%, you might take the 90% as a manufacturer. As a performance person you might say the 10% less is worth it. So yes, from what I read, technically there are negative consequences, but it's what you feel the risk/reward is. I don't think that's been quantified.

[kayger12]

So if that logic holds true, then that would imply that underdrive pulleys negatively impact the durability and reliability of your engine...making them not desirable, right? My point was just......if all are raving that there are no negative consequences...BMW either gave up on 10 free HP and 3 free MPG...or there are negative consequences.

I don't think there are necessarily negative consequences. I think there is a calculable potential for negative consequences. There's a difference.

Someone can take the information that is out there and decide that the increased potential is acceptable to them, where BMW would not find it acceptable.

[WOLFN8TR]

I installed under drive pulleys on my old 97 Chevy 4x4 years ago. It slowed down the alternator to much and had to remove them. That truck had dual electric cooling fans and while running the under drive pulleys the fans pulled so much amperage it killed the battery.

Curious if slowing down the water pump on a BMW that has cooling issues is a good idea or not? Wouldn't it be better to do the mechanical fan to electric fan swap?

[imola red zhp]

has anyone installed the ECS under drive pulleys? pros / cons

[VA//M3]

Assuming everyone is talking about the ECS WaterPump pulley; The pulley is overdriven, meaning the pump spins faster then OEM.

There are no issues with running Pulleys. On M54B30's only the waterpump and power steering pulleys are under driven.

There is no difference in underdriving the waterpump when it comes to temp since our electric thermostat will compensate and keep things cool.

[VA//M3]

Dane and Kpro can vouch. Car is MUCH more responsive. George (VA330Ci) got the RE kit, too.

It sure was!

I may have the RE pulleys for sale soon. Let me know if anyone is interested.

[webster]

i'm interested in the RE pulleys. how is the install?

[HokieZHP]

Why are you selling them?

[webster]

i think he's looking to sell his car, so probably parting out.

[danewilson77]

Assuming everyone is talking about the ECS WaterPump pulley; The pulley is overdriven, meaning the pump spins faster then OEM.


So....I wonder if this in tself can make the pump wear out faster?

[zj96sc]

well, given totally variable input RPM in the first place, i'd say the difference is almost totally negligible. it'd be like driving at 75mph instead of 65 a lot, etc.

[danewilson77]

well, given totally variable input RPM in the first place, i'd say the difference is almost totally negligible. it'd be like driving at 75mph instead of 65 a lot, etc.

Yeah...I spose. Guess the only benny here is that it weighs less.

[Hornung418]

i'm interested in the RE pulleys. how is the install?

Cake walk. Loosen the bolts, belt off, remove bolts, swap pulleys and reverse order. Easy 45-60 minute job.

Courtesy of Gingerbread...

[webster]

suite. i was looking for a new mod project before doing the VCG etc...

[LivesNearCostco]

Sometimes easier to loosen (but not remove) water pump and P/S pulley bolts before removing belt. If they're not rusted, belt will provide enough tension to hold the pulleys steady. My kit (Evosport) came with 3 pulleys but I never got the alternator one installed because it was 3mm too tall. After removing my alternator and alternator pulley bolt twice (a PITA) and sending photos to BimmerWorld and Evosport, I concluded that not all Bosch alternators use the same thickness pulley. Apparently my alternator is the less common Bosch kind.

Evosport is about an hour from me and kindly offered to machine down the pulley to fit if I brought it in, but I haven't gotten around to it so it's just like I purchased a two-pulley RE or UUC kit! Except I paid more to have the alt pulley.

[webster]

last night i bought the RE power pulley kit from modbargains for $185 + $10 shipping. will be installing next week. based on feedback i've read, i'm pretty excited about this mod.

[Hornung418]

Awesome to hear, Webster!

[danewilson77]

last night i bought the RE power pulley kit from modbargains for $185 + $10 shipping. will be installing next week. based on feedback i've read, i'm pretty excited about this mod.

In for product review. Well done Chap.

[aurelius]

For those looking to stay with OE pulley diameters but also wanting aluminum, Pelican Parts sells black anodized aluminum versions of the water & power steering pulleys. Both are currently in stock for the M54 motor.

Water pump pulley: 11-51-1-436-590-M253
Power steering pump pulley: 32-42-1-740-858-M253

[danewilson77]

For those looking to stay with OE pulley diameters but also wanting aluminum, Pelican Parts sells black anodized aluminum versions of the water & power steering pulleys. Both are currently in stock for the M54 motor.

Water pump pulley: 11-51-1-436-590-M253
Power steering pump pulley: 32-42-1-740-858-M58

Says the power steering pump pulley is "plastic" not "Al"

[danewilson77]

Ahhh...think you meant "M253" for the PS pump.

32-42-1-740-858-M253

[kayger12]

I got a stock-size AL pulley from Bav Auto.

[danewilson77]

I got a stock-size AL pulley from Bav Auto.

Copy....

[imola red zhp]

Anyone using any under drive pulleys? would like some thoughts, I was considering 2 under drive pulleys when I replace the W/P Them., exp. tank etc..... advantages or just upgrading to aluminum stock size pulleys?

[aurelius]

Ahhh...think you meant "M253" for the PS pump.
32-42-1-740-858-M253

Yes, that's correct. I've made the correction to my earlier post. Pelican's site works in odd ways when you sub one similar part out for another in your Project List.

[Hornung418]

Anyone using any under drive pulleys? would like some thoughts, I was considering 2 under drive pulleys when I replace the W/P Them., exp. tank etc..... advantages or just upgrading to aluminum stock size pulleys?
I've had them on my 328i for 6 months and there is definite responsiveness from the steering rack and the throttle response is killer.

[imola red zhp]

I've had them on my 328i for 6 months and there is definite responsiveness from the steering rack and the throttle response is killer.

Which one did you change? and which brand did you use? Thanks

[Hornung418]

Changed Wp and PSP pulleys with RogueEngineering. $185 + S/H.

[imola red zhp]

Changed Wp and PSP pulleys with RogueEngineering. $185 + S/H.


thank you

[Hornung418]

No problem, Dennis!!

[BurghJR]

Has anyone purchased or seen the kit from bimmerbum.com (http://www.bimmerbum.com) "BMW E46 3 series non-M Heavy Duty Pulley Kit" $129? (sorry, no link to the product page directly) Essentially it would keep the stock functionality of water pump and ps using aluminum pulleys. After replacing my stuck thermostat last year with the ECS aluminum unit, I'm all for replacing any composite/plastic pieces with metal and keeping the stock look.

Is $129 even a reasonable price for oem-size aluminum WP and PS pulleys and belt?

[MrMaico]

Has anyone purchased or seen the kit from bimmerbum.com (http://www.bimmerbum.com) "BMW E46 3 series non-M Heavy Duty Pulley Kit" $129? (sorry, no link to the product page directly) Essentially it would keep the stock functionality of water pump and ps using aluminum pulleys. After replacing my stuck thermostat last year with the ECS aluminum unit, I'm all for replacing any composite/plastic pieces with metal and keeping the stock look.

Is $129 even a reasonable price for oem-size aluminum WP and PS pulleys and belt?

Sounds a little high. There seem to be only a couple of manufacturers of the stock size aluminum pulleys and assuming these are URO brand you can find those for about $30 each. The other brand I've seen is HAMBURG TECHNIC GERMANY and Googling their name made me think they might be something to avoid. I need to order a set of these for myself one of these days.

[BurghJR]

Yea now that I think about it $129 is pretty steep...and the original price is $199! I did a little googling on Bimmerbum and he has a less than stellar track record. Multiple customers who placed orders through the website and his Ebay store reported that items paid for were never received and he hasn't responded to their complaints. So much for that.

May be time to suck it up and get the Rogue Engineering kit. Anodized black finish with no labels = subtle.

[webster]

yeah if you were considering this kit, go for the Rogue. For $70 more you get about 5 rwhp from a 45 min install. pretty good imo.

[imola red zhp]

Hey Horney, did u replace the alt pulley to a better one left it stock?

sent from Dennis' Droid using tapatalk

[Hornung418]

There is no better alternator pulley so to speak. Mine wasn't failing, so I didn't feel the need to replace it.

[imola red zhp]

There is no better alternator pulley so to speak. Mine wasn't failing, so I didn't feel the need to replace it.

Copy that, I have the Rogue on order...

sent from Dennis' Droid using tapatalk

[webster]

got my tracking confirmation for the pulley kit, scheduled to arrive monday. fortunately, i have tuesday off! will be doing the pulleys, PS fluid, and MAF cleaning...should be fun.

[Hermes]

Bringing back an old one...

So I was looking at TMS' site and they have 2 options depending on which alternator you have (technically 3 if you count that they sell a kit w/o alternator pulley for those with upgraded sound systems). Since I don't have my car in front of me to look, does anybody know what I need to look at to figure out if it's the Bosch or Valeo alternator? I'm assuming there is some sort of marking but I just want to know where to look when I get home later this week

[Hornung418]

Bringing back an old one...

So I was looking at TMS' site and they have 2 options depending on which alternator you have (technically 3 if you count that they sell a kit w/o alternator pulley for those with upgraded sound systems). Since I don't have my car in front of me to look, does anybody know what I need to look at to figure out if it's the Bosch or Valeo alternator? I'm assuming there is some sort of marking but I just want to know where to look when I get home later this week

Take off air box and there will be a tag that says Bosch or Valeo.

Courtesy of Gingerbread...

[Hermes]

Cool, thanks bud. I'm assuming I have to remove the bottom plastic part of box too?

[spencers]

Cool, thanks bud. I'm assuming I have to remove the bottom plastic part of box too?

Pull the two 10mm bolts holding the air box, unscrew the clamp on the upper intake hose, remove the air box. From there you'll have immediate access to the alternator.

[Hermes]

Doesn't matter what brand you have. It's all about the plug on the back of the alternator. Oval or square.

I assumed that it was a shape issue, I just didn't feel like paying $64 extra so they can send me both and then I would return one

[spencers]

I assumed that it was a shape issue, I just didn't feel like paying $64 extra so they can send me both and then I would return one

Totally agree. Taking off the air box and inspecting is easy and totally worth the $64 you'd be otherwise throwing away.

[wsmeyer]

It's all about the length, the body of the Valeo alternator is shorter and thus the pulley is longer:

3327

William.

[Crickett]

+1 what these guys said. I'll add my $0.02 as I just got & installed TMS's kit: there are actually two different Bosch alternators, one that's apparently 330-specific. I selected the options appropriately on their website for a 330 with Bosch alternator (& no aftermarket stereo), but they still mistakenly sent me the wrong Bosch pulley. They quickly shipped out the correct one when I called about it, so just double check the pulleys as soon as you get them. :thumbsup

[UdubBadger]

I went with rouge pully set, got a killer deal from IND.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[LivesNearCostco]

When I wanted to read the back of my alternator, in addition to removing the airbox I needed a small mirror and a light. Another answer is just buy one of those underdrive pulley sets that does not include the alternator pulley.

Edit: I looked into my engine bay last night and if you remove both the airbox and the upper intake boot & MAF, you might be able to read the brand of alternator without a mirror if you stick your head down where the intake boot was. Or you can unplug the alternator and check if the plug is rectangular or square, though I think both the Valeo and one of the Bosch alternators have rectangular plugs. But no need to worry about this if you get the RE pulley kit (no alternator pulley).

[jayjay_dee]

I went with rouge pully set, got a killer deal from IND.


Seth, how do i get this killer deal too?

For my 2005 automatic...

[UdubBadger]

you call IND and order ;)

[imola red zhp]

Installed Rogue underdrive pullleys, nice low end response...

sent from Dennis' Droid using tapatalk

[quikryptonite]

Do I need to worry about the alternator pulley with a HK sound system? Sounds like the general consensus here is just get the PS and WP pulleys.

[stephenkirsh]

I know Turner motorsports said they've tested their alternator pulley with the HK system and there's no issue. Anything above HK in the stereo and it's probably not recommended.

I don't know if there's an issue with other brands of pulleys.

[3ZHPGUY]

I have a HK system and been running Turners for 50K+ with no problems


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[johnrando]

I did pick up a little alternator hum on my HK w/DICE iPod setup and the alt pulley, but no other issues and it doesn't affect radio, cd, etc.

[quikryptonite]

So, during my investigation of power pulley options and I came across an article over at Dinan's website. I was just about to pull the trigger on the TMS pulleys. Now, I'm worried because I am not sure if what he is talking about applies to our cars or not. Is this just for the E36 engines (or any engine) that requires the replacement of the harmonic dampener with a lightweight assembly?

Is this the part that Steve is talking about replacing?
E36 Crankshaft Harmonic Balancer (http://www.turnermotorsport.com/p-859-m50-crankshaft-harmonic-balancer-used-bmw-11231730311.aspx)

This is what I found for our cars:
E46 Belt Drive-Vibration Damper (http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?model=EV53&mospid=47725&btnr=11_2877&hg=11&fg=18&hl=3)

That's not what we are doing with our cars, right? I didn't think the WP and PS pulleys were related to the harmonic balancer. As I understand it we are leaving the original balancer in place and just changing the number of rotations related to the WP and PS assemblies, correct? We aren't touching the dampener.

The Turner guys swear by theirs and I know many of you are running them with no problems. Am I paranoid and just letting Steve talk me out of a few more horsepower and 2-3 MPG? Is this me worrying about something that isn't applicable to us? Tell me its going to be OK and I need to order my pulleys!

THE DANGERS OF POWER PULLEYS AND UNDERSTANDING THE HARMONIC DAMPER

by: Steve Dinan
I have been threatening for a long time to write a series of technical articles to educate consumers and to dispel misconceptions that exist about automotive after-market technology. Motivated by problems with customer’s cars resulting from the installation of power pulleys, I wish to explain the potential dangers of these products and address the damage they cause to engines.

The theory behind the power pulley is that a reduction in the speed of the accessory drive will minimize the parasitic losses that rob power from the engine. Parasitic power losses are a result of the energy that the engine uses to turn accessory components such as the alternator and water pump, instead of producing power for acceleration. In an attempt to minimize this energy loss, many companies claim to produce additional power by removing the harmonic damper and replacing it with a lightweight assembly. While a small power gain can be realized, there are a significant number of potential problems associated with this modification, some that are small and one which is particularly large and damaging!

The popular method for making power pulleys on E36 engines is by removing the harmonic damper and replacing it with a lightweight alloy assembly. This is a very dangerous product because this damper is essential to the longevity of an engine. The substitution of this part often results in severe engine damage. It is also important to understand that while the engine in a BMW is designed by a team of qualified engineers, these power pulleys are created and installed by people who do not understand some very important principles of physics. I would first like to give a brief explanation of these principles which are critical to the proper operation of an engine.

1) Elastic Deformation Though it is common belief that large steel parts such as crankshafts are rigid and inflexible, this is not true. When a force acts on a crank it bends, flexes and twists just as a rubber band would. While this movement is often very small, it can have a significant impact on how an engine functions.

2) Natural Frequency All objects have a natural frequency that they resonate (vibrate) at when struck with a hammer. An everyday example of this is a tuning fork. The sound that a particular fork makes is directly related to the frequency that it is vibrating at. This is its “natural frequency,” that is dictated by the size, shape and material of the instrument. Just like a tuning fork, a crankshaft has a natural frequency that it vibrates at when struck. An important aspect of this principle is that when an object is exposed to a heavily amplified order of its own natural frequency, it will begin to resonate with increasing vigor until it vibrates itself to pieces (fatigue failure).

3) Fatigue Failure Fatigue failure is when a material, metal in this case, breaks from repeated twisting or bending. A paper clip makes a great example. Take a paper clip and flex it back and forth 90° or so. After about 10 oscillations the paper clip will break of fatigue failure. The explanation of the destructive nature of power pulleys begins with the two basic balance and vibration modes in an internal combustion engine. It is of great importance that these modes are understood as being separate and distinct.
1) The vibration of the engine and its rigid components caused by the imbalance of the rotating and reciprocating parts. This is why we have counterweights on the crankshaft to offset the mass of the piston and rod as well as the reason for balancing the components in the engine.
2) The vibration of the engine components due to their individual elastic deformations. These deformations are a result of the periodic combustion impulses that create torsional forces on the crankshaft and camshaft. These torques excite the shafts into sequential orders of vibration, and lateral oscillation. Engine vibration of this sort is counteracted by the harmonic damper and is the primary subject of this paper. Torsional Vibration (Natural Frequency) Every time a cylinder fires, the force twists the crankshaft. When the cylinder stops firing the force ceases to act and the crankshaft starts to return to the untwisted position.

However, the crankshaft will overshoot and begin to twist in the opposite direction, and then back again. Though this back-and-forth twisting motion decays over a number of repetitions due to internal friction, the frequency of vibration remains unique to the particular crankshaft. This motion is complicated in the case of a crankshaft because the amplitude of the vibration varies along the shaft. The crankshaft will experience torsional vibrations of the greatest amplitude at the point furthest from the flywheel or load.

Simplified Flywheel and Crankshaft Assembly
Harmonic (sine wave) Torque Curves

Each time a cylinder fires, force is translated through the piston and the connecting rod to the crankshaft pin. This force is then applied tangentially to, and causes the rotation of the crankshaft.

The sequence of forces that the crankshaft is subjected to is commonly organized into variable tangential torque curves that in turn can be resolved into either a constant mean torque curve or an infinite number of sine wave torque curves. These curves, known as harmonics, follow orders that depend on the number of complete vibrations (cylinder pulses) per revolution. Accordingly, the tangential crankshaft torque is comprised of many harmonics of varying amplitudes and frequencies. This is where the name “harmonic damper” originates.
Critical RPM’s

When the crankshaft is revolving at an RPM such that the torque frequency, or one of the harmonic sine wave frequencies coincides with the natural frequency of the shaft, resonance occurs. Thus, the crankshaft RPM at which this resonance occurs is known a critical speed. A modern automobile engine will commonly pass through multiple critical speeds over the range of its possible RPM’s. These speeds are categorized into either major or minor critical RPM’s.
Major and Minor Critical RPM’s

Major and minor critical RPM’s are different due to the fact that some harmonics assist one another in producing large vibrations, whereas other harmonics cancel each other out. Hence, the important critical RPM’s have harmonics that build on one another to amplify the torsional motion of the crankshaft. These critical RPM’s are know as the “major criticals”. Conversely, the “minor criticals” exist at RPM’s that tend to cancel and damp the oscillations of the crankshaft.

If the RPM remains at or near one of the major criticals for any length of time, fatigue failure of the crankshaft is probable. Major critical RPM’s are dangerous, and either must be avoided or properly damped. Additionally, smaller but still serious problems can result from an undamped crankshaft. The oscillation of the crankshaft at a major critical speed will commonly sheer the front crank pulley and the flywheel from the crankshaft. I have witnessed front pulley hub keys being sheered, flywheels coming loose, and clutch covers coming apart. These failures have often required crankshaft and/or gearbox replacement.
Harmonic Dampers

Crankshaft failure can be prevented by mounting some form of vibration damper at the front end of the crankshaft that is capable of absorbing and dissipating the majority of the vibratory energy. Once absorbed by the damper the energy is released in the form of heat, making adequate cooling a necessity. This heat dissipation was visibly essential in Tom Milner’s PTG racing M3 which channeled air from the brake ducts to the harmonic damper, in order to keep the damper at optimal operating temperatures. While there are various types of torsional vibration dampers, BMW engines are primarily designed with “tuned rubber” dampers.

It is also important to note that while the large springs of a dual mass flywheel absorb some of the torsional impulses conveyed to the crankshaft, they are not harmonic dampers, and are only responsible for a small reduction in vibration.
Cut-Out View of a Tuned Rubber Harmonic Damper

In addition to the crankshaft issue, other problems can result from slowing down the accessories below their designed speeds, particularly at idle. Slowing the alternator down can result in reduced charging of the battery, dimming of the lights, and computer malfunctions. Slowing of the water pump and fan can result in warm running, while slowing of the power steering can cause stiff steering at idle and groaning noises. It is possible to implement design corrections and avoid these scenarios, but this would require additional components and/or software.

Our motto at Dinan® is “Performance without sacrifice”. We feel our customers expect ultra high performance along with the legendary comfort and reliability of a standard BMW.

While it is common that a Dinan® BMW is the fastest BMW you can buy, performance is not our only goal. Dinan isn’t just trying to make the fastest car. Instead a host of considerations go into the development of our products. Dinan puts much more effort into these other areas than does our competition.

These considerations are Performance, Reliability (Warranty), Driveability, Emissions, Value, Fit and Finish. We feel that the power pulley is a bad way to get extra power from and engine and the potential for serious engine damage is too great.

This is a simplified explanation meant to be comprehensible by those who are not automotive engineers. In trying to simplify an extremely complex topic some precision was sacrificed although we believe this explanation to be as accurate as possible. We encourage our customers to educate themselves and understand the automotive after-market because we believe that our products are the best researched, engineered, and fabricated products available.

For those interested in a more in depth and technical explanation of this topic, the reference book is Advanced Engine Technology, written by Heinz Heisler MSc,BSc,FIMI,MIRTE,MCIT. Heinz Heisler is the Head of Transportation Studies at The College of North West London. His book is distributed in this country by the SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers). Via Dinan University (http://dinancars.com/dinan-university/)

[wsmeyer]

That article is a bit misleading. Getting rid of the harmonic balancer is a bad idea but it implies that that's what power pulley kits do. I would love to know which kits he's referring to as I haven't noticed any that remove the balancer.

The Turner kit is water pump, power steering, alternator.

The UUC kit is just water pump and alternator.

[webster]

^ +1

i got the Rogue kit which is just PS and WP pulleys, and new serp belt. i've put 10k+ miles on them without any issue.

[Hermes]

If you are worried about harmonics install this

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1142715/superdamper/IMG_5051_51.JPG

[quikryptonite]

Thanks guys. Plus here is the response from TMS:

That only applied to crank pulleys that changed the harmonic balancer on the E36 cars. We do not change the crank pulley. We only change the alternator, h20 pump and power steering pulleys. No danger here.

Excellent. I'm ordering. The Dinan article should be titled: "The Dangers of Removing the Crank Pulley / Damper (on E36's)."

[Hornung418]

Yeah nothing to worry about. They do show actual gains. I raced Rob (Newjack) in NJ. Only difference were my pulleys and I beat him to 80mph from a dig by half a car length. The steering feel will also be increased

Sent from my GS3.

[Newjack]

Yeah nothing to worry about. They do show actual gains. I raced Rob (Newjack) in Mexico. Only difference were my pulleys and I beat him to 80mph from a dig by half a car length. The steering feel will also be increased

Sent from my GS3.



Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

[stephenkirsh]

Yeah nothing to worry about. They do show actual gains. I raced Rob (Newjack) in NJ. Only difference were my pulleys and I beat him to 80mph from a dig by half a car length. The steering feel will also be increased

Sent from my GS3.

How do they impact steering feel?

[Hornung418]

Tighter feel through the steering wheel. The PS pump spins slower so you work a little harder but the feel is worth it.

Sent from my GS3.

[webster]

power pulleys are some of the best $200 i've spent on the car.

[ELCID86]

Stop it!! I just spent $1k on parts for cooling system, Vanos, etc. now I'm thinking, while I have Colin's car apart... Stop.


Thumbs, iPhone, Tapatalk.

[Hornung418]

Do it Shawn. They are anodized aluminum and are far superior to any BMW plastic part. Upgrade the water pump to a Stewart EMP unit for added cooling while you're spending money. $195 and a limited lifetime warranty that covers the replacement of the unit should it fail under your ownership.

Sent from my GS3.

[johnrando]

I have the TMS pulleys. The quality is better. It seems to help, but I can't attest to feeling a big difference.

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2

[ELCID86]

Yeah nothing to worry about. They do show actual gains. I raced Rob (Newjack) in NJ. Only difference were my pulleys and I beat him to 80mph from a dig by half a car length. The steering feel will also be increased

Sent from my GS3.

Maybe you're a better driver !?! ;-)


Thumbs, iPhone, Tapatalk.

[Hornung418]

Maybe you're a better driver !?! ;-)


Thumbs, iPhone, Tapatalk.

I did get a slight jump on him...

Sent from my GS3.

[stephenkirsh]

Do it Shawn. They are anodized aluminum and are far superior to any BMW plastic part. Upgrade the water pump to a Stewart EMP unit for added cooling while you're spending money. $195 and a limited lifetime warranty that covers the replacement of the unit should it fail under your ownership.

Sent from my GS3.

You can find the pump for $175 or so on other sites. Maybe getbmwparts?

I lol at the lifetime warranty. If it fails, what are you gunna do? Pull it out and park your car for two weeks while they send you a new one? Might work for some, but it just seems odd to me. At least they try to stand by the product I guess.

[stephenkirsh]

So the Stewart pump claims 20% increased flow. I'm wondering how that works out when you combine it with a slower turning pulley.

[3ZHPGUY]

I installed Turner Under Drive Pulleys at 64K and now have 135K and probably the best upgrade I ever did. To date, I have replaced the belt just as a PM thing and had a problem with a sticky valve in the power steering pump that I don't know if it was related. And don't forget, the give you better mileage and that's a good selling point to tell the wife.

[Hornung418]

You can find the pump for $175 or so on other sites. Maybe getbmwparts?

I lol at the lifetime warranty. If it fails, what are you gunna do? Pull it out and park your car for two weeks while they send you a new one? Might work for some, but it just seems odd to me. At least they try to stand by the product I guess.

I had to use it. They sent me a replacement in one day and had the car fixed in no time. They are a top notch company.


So the Stewart pump claims 20% increased flow. I'm wondering how that works out when you combine it with a slower turning pulley.

Sits at 12 o'clock all day long. Have coded the care for tighter parameters.

Sent from my GS3.

[stephenkirsh]

Horn, is that under race conditions? I plan to track the car.

[Hornung418]

The car sees spirited driving daily. I will be tracking it after my suspension replacement. Other than that it is strong and reliable.

Sent from my GS3.

[Newjack]

Maybe you're a better driver !?! ;-)


Thumbs, iPhone, Tapatalk.

http://i.imgur.com/G0qXi.gif

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

[Hermes]

Horn, is that under race conditions? I plan to track the car.

You are not gonna be "tracking" hard enough to kill it. This thing can probably run a 12hr race in a real track e46

[quikryptonite]

So the Stewart pump claims 20% increased flow. I'm wondering how that works out when you combine it with a slower turning pulley.

Yeah, I've thought about that too. So if there is a 10-20% reduction in rotation, it would be similar to 100% of the OEM WP flow? If the Stewart WP claims to have even less parasitic loss than the original part, would that translate to more, even it is not much, horsepower getting to the wheels?

From TMS: Our pulleys give a 10-20% reduction in rotation, releasing up to 11hp on most BMW six-cylinder engines.

[stephenkirsh]

You are not gonna be "tracking" hard enough to kill it. This thing can probably run a 12hr race in a real track e46

Nice. I'd love to do that.

Top gear 24 hour endurance race in an e46 is one of my favorite episodes ever.

[Stewbie]

Top gear 24 hour endurance race in an e46 is one of my favorite episodes ever.

Do you recall which season and episode that was?

[Hermes]

Search for something like "top gear biofuel race"

They ran biodiesel in a 330d M-Sport

[Stewbie]

Thx! Season 10, Episode 9 http://www.topgear.com/uk/videos/24

[stephenkirsh]

It's such a great episode. In the words of clarkson, "this is the most epic thing we've done."

[Hermes]

Nice. I'd love to do that.

Top gear 24 hour endurance race in an e46 is one of my favorite episodes ever.

By real track car I mean one powered by a P54B20 ;)

http://www.bmwinfo.com/0476.jpg

>260hp, ITB's, 9000rpm redline

[quikryptonite]

It's such a great episode. In the words of clarkson, "this is the most epic thing we've done."

It really is such a phenomenal episode. Definitely one of my favorites as well. I love when Jeremy is coming down the final stretch and he says, "it wants to make the finish line, I'm just willing it on."

[stephenkirsh]

By real track car I mean one powered by a P54B20 ;)

http://www.bmwinfo.com/0476.jpg

>260hp, ITB's, 9000rpm redline

Ooooooo I'll have to look into that engine. Why 2.0? Series spec?

[Hermes]

Yes, touring car runs 2.0 spec.

[Hornung418]

Didn't the P54B20 idle at 4000rpm? The car could rev to the moon...but it has a very unstreetable rev band. Quite a great sound though from what I've heard on YouTube!

Sent from my GS3.

[Hermes]

Sounds right for a P code engine