VANOS (i think) problem and questions

[Token]

Hi Everyone,

The story on my car is I bought it used from a BMW dealer last month, and it came with a 60-day warranty. its an 05 6MT with 75k mi. So far, the dealer has replaced the thermostat and the temp sensor which was awesome. A couple weeks ago I noticed a rattle around 2k and thought it was probably VANOS. at this point i took it to the dealer. I knew going in that a new oem unit would eventually develop the same rattle but i thought I might as well give it a shot since it was free and there was a chance the new unit would be rattle free for a couple of years. Car goes in, service said bad VANOS unit, warranty covers claim, and i get it back with a new VANOS unit. Noise seemed to be gone.

About a week and half later (around 500mi), i noticed the noise again. its a bummer, but not a big surprise. The only thing is, the noise is WAY worse now that it was before it had the new unit. its much louder and its seems rougher and raspier. Also, the rattle is audibly present as you accelerate through 4 and 5k rpm's. Before, it seemed to disappear right before 3k rpm's.

so here are my questions for you all:

1. Why does the noise come back when a new oem unit is put in? Why doesn't it last another 75k like the previous unit did? It just seems like there must be something else that causes oem units to fail right away, but i wont speculate since I don't know much about this issue other than what i've read on here. it just doesn't make sense to me that replacing a broken part with a new part will cause the new part to break right away unless you use the modified after market repair kits.

2. Is there anything the dealer can do for me at this point? The work is under warranty and so is the car, so there shouldn't be any charge. But is there any solution to the VANOS problem that a dealer can provide?

Also today when checking the oil, i noticed some oil on this one screw (pic below). I drew an arrow to where the oil drop was. could it just be left over from the VANOS swap or is there the possibility of a leak.
http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o143/wutupwitu99/BMW/vanos.jpg

Thanks for reading everyone! you guys always seem to give good advice :)

[Oli77]

This doesn't sound right, 500 miles and the noise comes back?

Can't help you because I have 76K on my non-ZHP and no rattle yet (knocking the wood), so I have never experienced it. People say it will fail again but as you say, if they replaced the whole unit *not just the rings* then it should last longer than 500 miles.

As for oil being on that spot, I don't think there can be a leak there (leftover from job?).

Other more knowledgeable fellows will chime in.

[Oli77]

Isn't there a break in period?

[kayger12]

The noise can definitely come back quickly, mine certainly did after replacement.

I would imagine that the different rpm onset just means you have different resonance rpms setting up with the new vanos than you did with the old one.

Totally plausible, imo.

Only way to solve it for good is with a Beisan or Dr Vanos job.

I wish this was sent with a Galaxy S3

[zj96sc]

Do you have proof from the shop that it was a brand new oem vanos?

I'll put my money on a low quality reman that was probably in worse shape than your old one, especially under a 60 day warranty claim.

Do the beisan kit and strike it off your list of stuff to worry about.

[Token]

thanks for the responses so far


The noise can definitely come back quickly, mine certainly did after replacement.

I would imagine that the different rpm onset just means you have different resonance rpms setting up with the new vanos than you did with the old one.

Totally plausible, imo.

Only way to solve it for good is with a Beisan or Dr Vanos job.

I wish this was sent with a Galaxy S3

ya i read your vanos thread, it sounded like you had a similar situation with your CPO warranty. im just curious why a new unit will fail so quickly when the original unit lasted so long. like there must be something different going on that makes the new unit fail that wasn't going on during the last 75k miles. you know what i mean?

unless the new unit is defective like zk96sc said above (sorry i don't know everyone's name)

[llll1l1ll]

ZJ makes a good point. They could just be giving you bottom of the barrel parts. However, Kayger also makes an interesting point, as well.

I would go ahead and invest some time/money into getting the Beisan or Dr. Vanos systems in soon. The rattle is annoying, but it's not seriously detrimental to your car (**AFAIK**).

[danewilson77]

The noise can definitely come back quickly, mine certainly did after replacement.

I would imagine that the different rpm onset just means you have different resonance rpms setting up with the new vanos than you did with the old one.

Totally plausible, imo.

Only way to solve it for good is with a Beisan or Dr Vanos job.

I wish this was sent with a Galaxy S3

This.

Sent from SIGFest 2012, via TTv1.5.4

[echo46]

I agree with the above, do the full beisan refresh. As far as the oil leak, it could be left over from the vanos job or possible a failing valve cover gasket. Wipe the oil off and keep your eye on it to see if there is any further leak and where it is originating.

[MiHiZHP]

The noise can definitely come back quickly, mine certainly did after replacement.


Only way to solve it for good is with a Beisan or Dr Vanos job.

I wish this was sent with a Galaxy S3

Ja, ja... Die Vanos Klappergeräusche. Sounds like there should be a cream for that.

A completely normal noise according to the mech's at 3 different dealerships and a handful of BMWNA customer service reps that I call every 9 months or so to refresh the complaint in my file.

Finally managed to get a dealer to replace the vanos unit and the rattle came back after less than 500 mi. It is without a doubt, The single most annoying thing about the car.. Ahh, I remember that first week spent on the Autobahn and the next 6 months stateside. It sounded so good! Now every single time I drive it, I keep telling myself Dass Klappergeräusche is ok, it's not really hurting anything... I should just get over it...what's my problem? But it's there, ohhh, it's there.

It's sorta like my girlfriend. The first few times she said 'Oh my god' in a Kardashianesque affectation didn't really bother me. There were a lot times when I didn't hear it and a few when I was looking right at her. Flash forward a couple years, she has a back tat (it means perserverance in Japanese...Becky and I looked it up! Gawl!) and everyonce in a while lets one rip - which, despite what she says, do not smell like strawberries and vanilla and leave a glitter stain on her undies. Not like I've taken a giant whiff or anything. I'm not a perv. The worst is when she draws it out 'Ohhh myyyyy gaaawwwwwwwwwd'. I'm telling you, one of these days I'm just gonna stick the nearest sharp object in my ears....

I'll be sending my unit off to Dr. Vanos in a couple weeks. I can't take it anymore...

[JohnnyGraphic]

A couple of thoughts. I agree to a point with the above-to replace the vanos bits with the Beisan/Dr. Vanos kit. I did the seals myself. Overall easy job. However, and this is where I disagree with the above, the Vanos they gave you should be new/OEM. There is no reason to do work/overhaul a brand new part that the dealer installed. I see the blue RTV sealant, so it definitely looks like they at least pulled your valve gasket cover. I would see if you can get your camera or phone down deep enough to take a decent photo of the front of the vanos unit. Maybe use a mirror to get the right angle on it. Is it clean and new looking or perhaps an older unit? Either way, I would definitely take it back to the dealer and have them take care of it for you. The warranty is something built into the price of the car your bought from them. Make sure you document all of your conversations and with whom. Get the dealership on the hook for the problem. No reason for you to eat up the cost and the labor for the Beisan/Dr. Vanos fix.

Good luck.

Johnny

[Oli77]

^+1

[MiHiZHP]

I did the seals myself. Overall easy job.

Did the seals fix it? Rather than sending my unit off, I may just try doing the seals myself.

[JohnnyGraphic]

The rattle and the seals are two different things and two totally different fixes, but very related. Two different parts on the same unit.

The rattle comes from play in the bearings on the vanos. It leads to that nasty rattle, but from what I gather, no loss in performance. Just a big gain in annoyance!

The seals/O-rings break down/shrink over time and cause the vanos pistons to not seal correctly, leading to a loss of oil pressure. What this basically does is make the vanos non-functional (very simply put).

A lot of people do both the seals and the rattle fix at the same time since you're doing all the same work to access the vanos unit. So, they kill two birds with one stone so to speak.

As far as DIY, if you have the tools and the patience, the DIY is fairly straightforward and very well done on the beisan website. I'm sure if you post either here, bimmerfest or E46fanatics, you'll find plenty of help and useful advice that are local to you. This site and others are very giving when it comes to this sort of thing!

To the OP, I would strongly suggest having the dealer pay the freight on the vanos rattle you're having since their 'fix' didn't really fix it.

My 2 cents.

Johnny

[BRGcoopahS]

Do you have proof from the shop that it was a brand new oem vanos?

I'll put my money on a low quality reman that was probably in worse shape than your old one, especially under a 60 day warranty claim.

Do the beisan kit and strike it off your list of stuff to worry about.

I dont know, he bought it at a bmw dealer. If he bought it from a used car lot and was given a 60 day warranty, then no doubt the unit would be some BS used, remanufactured one. But wouldnt a BMW dealer have a legitimate warranty?

[JohnnyGraphic]

I dont know, he bought it at a bmw dealer. If he bought it from a used car lot and was given a 60 day warranty, then no doubt the unit would be some BS used, remanufactured one. But wouldnt a BMW dealer have a legitimate warranty?

According to his first post, he said it was purchased at a BMW dealership.

Token-I would take a look at the Invoice for the vanos and see if that gives you any indication if the unit was a new BMW unit or not. I can't imagine that they would stick you with an old/remanufactured one. But, worse things have happened at dealerships. http://www.foxnews.com/health/2012/04/23/suit-woman-fired-after-donating-kidney-to-boss/

Johnny

[kayger12]

Here's the thing, guys:

We could put 100 brand-spanking-new vanos units in this car and a great many of them will develop the rattle again and again.

It has nothing to do with new vs. refurbished... it has to do with the fact that the specs for the spacer bearings allows for them to be manufactured with too great a tolerance... meaning most of them are just a hair off from perfect with respect to thickness which allows that axial play to set up and resonate.

If you're going to go back and demand a new vanos, you need to be prepared to do it over and over until you win the lottery and get spacers that are actually the proper thickness.

Might be the second time, might be the thirtieth time...

...or, you can just go Beisan/Dr. Vanos and be done with it.


I wish this was sent with a Galaxy 3

[cakM3]

OP,

As others have said, go with Beisan/Dr. Vanos and be done with it. At least this way, you won't have that annoying rattle and know that your Vanos is fixed properly :thumbsup

[zj96sc]

I've thought about this a little more and think I overlooked a pretty fundamental point in my first post. The play that creates the resonance within the VANOS is the helical gear set on the end of the cams. Therefore, reman or new VANOS is irrelevant - you need to tighten up the VANOS, and that's not going to happen with an off the shelf unit.

Dr. Vanos or Beisan. You at least have new seals so you can just do the rattle kit and rock on.

[Token]

thanks for the info guys!


The warranty is something built into the price of the car your bought from them. Make sure you document all of your conversations and with whom. Get the dealership on the hook for the problem. No reason for you to eat up the cost and the labor for the Beisan/Dr. Vanos fix.

Good luck.

Johnny

This is exactly how i feel too. but it seems like there is nothing the dealership can do at this point, unless I could get them to install a Beisan/Dr. Vanos fix which i doubt they would.

here's my only issue:

I'm down at school right now and I don't have the tools or even a place to do the work to remove the VANOS and swap out the seals. I would have to wait until June when I go home for the summer to do the job. Thus, my warranty will have run out and I will be SOL if i'm still having problems after the Beisan/Dr. Vanos. but it sounds like this shouldn't be an issue since everyone on here says the repair kits worked perfectly.

my question is, is there anything else that could be causing the rattle? It matches all the VANOS symptoms and the dealer identified it as VANOS, so i'm pretty sure that's what it is.

I just don't want to end up out of warranty with a rattle that I cant fix myself.

-Joey

[danewilson77]

I would take it back......have them fix the rattle and the oil leak......

Hopefully this lasts you till summer.....then do the rebuild.

[Token]

^ yeah that is what im going to do. the rattle is getting noisier and my gas millage has gone to sh!t.

[aurelius]

I predict they'll tell you the rattle is NVF.

As far as alternative causes of the noise, you may want to be sure your DISA flap hasn't broken apart. See here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s82CIF28zhU

[Token]

I predict they'll tell you the rattle is NVF.

what is nvf?

and thanks for the video. i'll double check the DISA but the noise only comes on after 2000 rpm's

[aurelius]

Normal Vehicle Function

[webster]

i've had the rattle since i bought mine, it develops right at 2k RPM. doesn't seem to affect performance any aside from being annoyingly noisy (sounds like a diesel at times lol), but then again, i've never driven a ZHP that's had a Beisan/Dr Vanos job done so I have no baseline for comparison...

once i get back to work and get some paychecks built up again i plan on getting a Dr Vanos unit this summer and knocking out the Vanos, VCG and Plugs

[Token]

so the car went to the dealer last night. today they called and said the problem is the timing belt tensioner and they are gonna replace it. well see if it does the trick.

could that really cause the rattle as well as decreased fuel economy?

[danewilson77]

Spose it could. Not common though, at all.

Sent from SIGFest 2012

[echo46]

It makes some sense but I haven't really heard of that one.

[llll1l1ll]

It makes some sense but I haven't really heard of that one.

Yeah it sounds a bit weird to me, but they are professionals... Heh.

[echo46]

Indeed, and with much trepidation I am taking my whip back to the stealership today. They are going to replace the door frame cover that they so badly scratched two weeks ago when they did the tail light recall.

[llll1l1ll]

Maybe they will "discover" a new leak.

[Token]

Got the car back. as i predicted, the chain tensioners were not the culprit. The service supervisor said they replaced the chain tensioers, twice. This didn't help the noise so they went back and replaced the VANOS, went in and checked the valves, valve adjustment, and cover gaskets, checked the cams, checked compression, re-torqued everthing, and re-did the timing. and now there is no noise :)

keeping my fingers crossed that it will stay that way! at least until i have time to do the beisan upgrade

[danewilson77]

Good news T.

Delivered from SIGFest USA

[NorCalZman]

Awesome. Valve adjustment? I thought only the M3 got valve adjustments

[Token]

Awesome. Valve adjustment? I thought only the M3 got valve adjustments

ya you are right. I must have confused that with something else he said they did, i had trouble remembering everything.