Lets discuss "the swap"

[UdubBadger]

Yeah it's been discussed in about 40 different threads, but lets house it all under one roof for future reference.

I am talking about the S54 swap (or other motor swaps but going into an E46 this seems like the most common). Making an non M, an M (at least under bonnet).

Since Terry doesn't seem like he'd part with his Rogue S54 330i any time soon - I've become very intrigued with the possibility of having a 4 door E46 "///M" with an S54 instead of just buying an M3 and losing 2 doors.

What is involved?
What is recommended to accompany it (trans, subframe, diff... ect)?
How much work is this really? Any estimated labor costs if letting a shop tackle the job?
Any areas of concern (other than burning through tires too quickly)? :p

For those who are also interested, ask your questions. For those who have done it (or seen it done) answer some questions for us all.

[Hornung418]

Speak with Anton (JohnBlaze), Strider (Elric's friend) and Kalim (Cyberkaa on e46fanatics).

They'll have all the answers you could want.

Also this thread is quite the incredible read. http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=578901 It entails swapping the body parts...but you can just take what you need. JeppeJ is a legend!

MITE46 (George) also did the swap. His was also super intense. Best part was that it was leased by his parents while he was at school HAHAH!! http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=176943

[Hermes]

how "all out" do you want to go? There's a thread on e46f where a guy bought a M3 just to strip and put all the parts in his 4dr. I'll try to find that thread

edit: Justin edited his post and put the link in

[UdubBadger]

I dunno, I guess thats kinda the point. What would be minimum? What would be "smart"? What would be extravagant but worth it?

[JupiterBMW]

Yes, this thread is the best evAr! Lets sort into 3 categories... Minimum necessary, beneficial, and the "I've got more money than I know what to do with" category... I would love this swap more than anything into my ZHP.

[UdubBadger]

I think theres like at least a dozen of us here who would seriously consider it. I know Ryan was dreaming about a swap the other day.

[Hermes]

mine will one day have a S62, I'm not sure what to put in the 2002 yet but that might get one too

[derbo]

S54 has a good portion of significant differences in accessory lines. I firsthand saw complications involving the M3 fuel pump lines being different fittings and ultimately having the whole system replaced with the M3 lines. The M3 fuel pump I believe has a higher liter/hr than the 330i pump and it may or may not come into play when you get into the higher revs.

I also noticed with Kalim, some of the power steering lines are different. The one that goes to the front of the radiator has a different angle (about 90degrees difference) and prevented us from using the 325i line.


Kalim has told me that wiring is a challenge since TIS and WDS isn't always correct in their wiring diagrams. The gauge cluster from the M3 also needs to be reflash by RPMmotorsports to communicate with the sedan modules while still communicating with the M3 modules. I'm not sure how he tackled the door indicators but that would bug me.

I remember Kalim telling me that ultimately the wiring job is the most difficult process since alot of wires were missing from the sedan (at least his 325i) that would make this a more plug n play setup.

I looked into this setup and everytime I talk to Kalim, it seems he tells me one more thing that ultimately would make me not want to do this swap until it is no longer my daily driver. I mean.....uhm...I don't want to do this swap. :eeps




I would imagine the minimal stuff you need is:

-S54 Engine
-S54 Engine Harness
-S54 Alternator, PS Reservior, PS Lines
-S54 Cluster
-PATIENCE

You probably can use a ZHP transmission, but I would opt for a M3 transmission.

If you don't do a rear end, I think a ZHP 6spd driveshaft will bolt right up.

If you do a rear end, you need M3 driveshaft since its shorter to compensate for the larger rear end carrier.




Downfalls for S54 Engine?
-Valve Adjustments are part of maintenance,
-costly on Oil Changes 10w60 sucks in price but not that much more.

Pros?
The best letter in the alphabet :)

[M3TA5IN]

Should break down all the valuable information and categorize it in first post Seth so it is easily accessible. If I go to a zhp this is something I would defiantly be interested in.

I just saw a complete S54 race tuned swap package the other day and I can't find it now.


Sent from my fancy city machine.

[UdubBadger]

nice thanks for the info Debro


Cody I will do that.

[nike001]

Let's not foget about this guy:
http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=913777&page=4

Said it costed him $11k+ to do it. I'd rather just get an M3

[Hornung418]

Let's not foget about this guy:
http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=913777&page=4

Said it cost him $11k+ to do it. I'd rather just get an M3
That's Anton as mentioned in my first post. He has a thread here on ZHPMafia.com.

[derbo]

Looks like the expansion tank needs to be M3 as well. The vacuum pump is relocated on the S54 engine bay. I wonder if that can be reused with S54 lines.

[UdubBadger]

Let's not foget about this guy:
http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=913777&page=4

Said it costed him $11k+ to do it. I'd rather just get an M3

same

[az3579]

I was seriously going to do this until maybe a week or two ago.
Then I realized that forced induction is overall cheaper and has more potential for more power than an S54 swap. And the best part is, it's not an M, so it won't cost a 2nd mortgage to rebuild the engine.

Twin screw it is, unless I could find a good turbo setup that I don't have to build myself.

[UdubBadger]

Very true but you're limited to what the m54 can do. With an s54 you get higher rpms and 333hp stock so to turbo/sc you have a lot more possibilities.

I agree, sc kit is much easier, cheaper and more hp than the stock s54.

Just doesn't sound as nice :(


- Goin' H.A.M. Mobile

[Meric]

Send the cluster to me to make some communications :) Like OIL Temp and stuff.. I got it worked on my 330ci :) I cant fix the tamper dot tho :) But since you change the DME and stuff it wouldnt show up! Keep us updated brotha :D

[cakM3]

Very true but you're limited to what the m54 can do. With an s54 you get higher rpms and 333hp stock so to turbo/sc you have a lot more possibilities.

I agree, sc kit is much easier, cheaper and more hp than the stock s54.

Just doesn't sound as nice :(


- Goin' H.A.M. Mobile

S54 FTW! :thumbsup

[BimmerWill]

Would love to do it in the future as a project but the funds just simply aren't going to be there for a few years...by that time I hope to have a 335 or something similar...may even have the cash to just buy an m3 after I graduate...but no sense in trying to cross bridges I can't even see yet I suppose....can dream though ;)

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2

[M3TA5IN]

I like dreaming about cars, it's probably my favorite hobby


Sent from my fancy city machine.

[UdubBadger]

What about Vanos on the S54. I hear 05-06 units are prettty unreliable and Dr. Vanos is $1300 plus core. Anyone have any comments on that?

[Hornung418]

VANOS delete and full retard on the intake cam is all you need.

[az3579]

Very true but you're limited to what the m54 can do. With an s54 you get higher rpms and 333hp stock so to turbo/sc you have a lot more possibilities.

I agree, sc kit is much easier, cheaper and more hp than the stock s54.

Just doesn't sound as nice :(


- Goin' H.A.M. Mobile

Yeah, but an S54 with forced induction would literally run me HALF my annual salary. A good supercharger kit for the S54 by itself, not including any labor or the engine or the swap labor, is over $10k. I mean, seriously: OMFG!!! Factor in the engine and all the components needed, plus labor to swap, you're looking at an easy half years salary saved up just at a minimum after all the "while you're in there" stuff is done.


(Note: when I say half year salary, this is based off of my salary)

[UdubBadger]

Yeah that is also very true I suppose. Those kits are not cheap by any means.

[az3579]

Not going to say that an S54 is off the table, though... :eeps

[Hermes]

after doing some minor research I have realized that a S62 is not possible since it was not produced the same year or newer than my car. I guess S54, S65, S85, or S63 are my choices.

[Hornung418]

Why does it have to be same year or newer?

Horney...via TT.

[M3TA5IN]

Why does it have to be same year or newer?

Horney...via TT.

Curious Cody is also curious


Sent from my fancy city machine.

[UdubBadger]

Curious Cody is also curious


Sent from my fancy city machine.

:rofl


I'd guess it has something to do with newer cars and their programming - but again, just a guess.

[UdubBadger]

What about swapping a Z4M engine, is that possible for us?

[M3TA5IN]

The S62 is used I the current production Ascarti A10 - I guess this would still pose problems with the electronics though.


Sent from my fancy city machine.

[Hornung418]

Z4M uses an S54.

Horney...via TT.

[UdubBadger]

Thought it was a differently tuned version though Justin. Maybe I was wrong, the numbers I have on it look different from the M3.

[Hornung418]

Thought it was a differently tuned version though Justin. Maybe I was wrong, the numbers I have on it look different from the M3.

Yeah...it's detuned.

Horney...via TT.

[Hermes]

it's a California law, if not exact same engine it must be produced same year or newer. If not then you cannot register your car. I actually did know about the Ascari but I'm not sure if that counts.


Engine Changes
Engine changes are legal as long as the following requirements are met to ensure that the change does not increase pollution from the vehicle:
The engine must be the same year or newer than the vehicle.

The engine must be from the same type of vehicle (passenger car, light-duty truck, heavy-duty truck, etc.) based on gross vehicle weight.

If the vehicle is a California certified vehicle then the engine must also be a California certified engine.

All emissions control equipment must remain on the installed engine

Vehicles converted to 100% electric drive, with all power supplied by on-board batteries are considered in compliance with the engine change requirements. All fuel system components must be removed prior to inspection. For additional information contact the ARB helpline at (800) 242-4450

After an engine change, vehicles must first be inspected by a state referee station. The vehicle will be inspected to ensure that all the equipment required is in place, and vehicle will be emissions tested subject to the specifications of the installed engine.

^: http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/aftermkt/replace.htm?PF=Y

Not sure if this applies to cars registered in other states

[az3579]

California emissions laws suck more than a five dollar hooker with a Dyson.

[M3TA5IN]

California emissions laws suck more than a five dollar hooker with a Dyson.

That's pretty much what I was thinking.


Sent from my fancy city machine.

[Hermes]

:rofl

[UdubBadger]

Yeah...it's detuned.

Horney...via TT.

Yeah but on my EC tuning log it actually says we can make MORE power on a Z4M than e46 M3 so something is different.


- Goin' H.A.M. Mobile

[Hornung418]

Yeah but on my EC tuning log it actually says we can make MORE power on a Z4M than e46 M3 so something is different.


- Goin' H.A.M. Mobile

More gains or higher peak numbers? It's just an S54 slightly tuned down.

Horney...via TT.

[UdubBadger]

higher peak

M3 3.2
HP
Stock = 333
Tuned = 346
TQ
Stock = 262
Tuned = 272


Z4M
HP
Stock = 338
Tuned = 368
TQ
Stock = 269
Tuned = 293


Could it be there is less drivetrain loss or something?

[Hornung418]

Doesn't make sense. Need links to documentation.

[UdubBadger]

can't give it to you but thats what our tuning info says and those gains are confirmed.

[webster]

per wikipedia:

BMW introduced an M version of the E85 Z4 in late 2006. Called the M Roadster, it's powered by the same 3.2L, 8,000rpm, S54 inline-6 engine as the E46 series M3, delivering 330hp through a new 6-speed manual transmission. Engine management is via the Siemens MS S70 with higher processing power (64 million calculations per second) than the MS S54 (25 million CPS) in the M3.

[M3TA5IN]

Damn those silly calculations, they get you every time.


Sent from my fancy city machine.

[UdubBadger]

there it is

[derbo]

it's a California law, if not exact same engine it must be produced same year or newer. If not then you cannot register your car. I actually did know about the Ascari but I'm not sure if that counts.



^: http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/aftermkt/replace.htm?PF=Y

Not sure if this applies to cars registered in other states


I wonder how involved this becomes compared to like hondas.

Getting BAR certification on hondas was pretty simply. Bolt in same year or newer engine, make sure all the emission controls from the engine are present and wala, certification. Newer RSX type S engines into a 1993 honda civic involved putting the fuel tank itself into the car as well for certification. I thought that was interesting.

I know Kalim's goal is to BAR certify his S54 powered 325i

[BimmerWill]

VANOS delete and full retard on the intake cam is all you need.

How does the vanos delete work? Just curious..

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2

[derbo]

Talking to kalim with his S54 325i earlier tonight has renewed my interest in this setup. Damage M3s are starting to end approach the $5000 line. add another 3000 for misc new parts and it seems like I can get myself an S54 engine in pretty fast. :)

Donor car + misc parts = easiest way to get the car running asap =O

[HokieZHP]

Do it! That's the plan for my car eventually.


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[derbo]

Kalim was saying the most difficult part was getting the wiring done. He said with his help, the wiring could be done in 2days. The mechanical part should be straight forward.


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[Hornung418]

Yeah, reading his thread and seeing all the wiring he had to do and decode, that would drive me bonkers. But since you have the mighty Kalim in your neighborhood, why not put him to work :)

[derbo]

Yeah, reading his thread and seeing all the wiring he had to do and decode, that would drive me bonkers. But since you have the mighty Kalim in your neighborhood, why not put him to work :)

Besides, we are both electrical engineer majors. :)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[nike001]

Besides, we are both electrical engineer majors. :)




Well. I'm sure you two could figure it out then

[derbo]

Oh it definitely helps that he already did it too. LOL. Now searching for a m3 salvaged car :)


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[Hornung418]

I'm sure out in CA, there are plenty of M3s sitting in bits and pieces.

This post brought to you by Uncle Clark's Anti-gravity Cream. Put some on your Super Collider just before the Big Bang.

[derbo]

The research stage of this swap has commenced.. :X

It's going to have to compete with an ESS TS2.

[Johal E32]

The research stage of this swap has commenced.. :X

It's going to have to compete with an ESS TS2.

Lol.

I was thinking of buying a E46 M3 in the next 2-3 years and completely gutting the shit out of it to make myself an M3/zhp wagon clone. And selling the parts I don't need.

Btw, I spy a E46 m3 on CL going for like 8.9k. Seems sketchy. but it's also salvaged and it looks like it has already been repaired.

http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sby/cto/3282826883.html

You could sell a manual swap kit, misc exterior parts, full interior, wheels, exhaust. Lots of good stuff to help cut the cost down a bit.

I also think a LS3 w/ a t56 tranny would be a great swap. Maybe an Ls7. ;)

[derbo]

I was looking into currently damaged cars with salvage titles with no means but using it as a donor car.

http://www.copart.com/c2/homeSearch.html?criteriaType=detailedSearch&returnPage=home&searchType=HOME&filterBaseLabel=Automobile+BMW&filterCode=&freshRequired=true&oSearchByType=Y&vehicleType=V&startYear=2004&endYear=2006&make=BMW&model=M3&titleGroupCode=&location=facility&stateFacility=*&zipPostalCode=94122&mileageRange=99999

So far the list right now seems to be only SMG cars. A manual will pop up eventually.

[mimalmo]

Ugh, Copart. Sooo many horror stories out there. Basically don't buy from them unless you're there to inspect it yourself and load it up that same day.

[derbo]

I heard the same. I am looking at only locals :)

[Junior2552]

Kalim was saying the most difficult part was getting the wiring done. He said with his help, the wiring could be done in 2days. The mechanical part should be straight forward.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

When I dropped the M52 into my brother's E30, the wiring was hard as hell WITH diagrams to help. I can't imagine how an S54 harness would look all torn apart. O_o

I'll make a deal. If somebody on here puts an S54 in their ZHP and makes an in-depth DIY thread about it, I'll put one in my E30..

[derbo]

I've talked to Kalim and his garage maybe the official host garage for my car when I find an m3.


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[az3579]

When I dropped the M52 into my brother's E30, the wiring was hard as hell WITH diagrams to help. I can't imagine how an S54 harness would look all torn apart. O_o

I'll make a deal. If somebody on here puts an S54 in their ZHP and makes an in-depth DIY thread about it, I'll put one in my E30..

I imagine it'll be WAY different to swap it into an E30 than an E46, so the DIY may not be entirely useful to you...

[derbo]

I imagine it'll be WAY different to swap it into an E30 than an E46, so the DIY may not be entirely useful to you...

I believe the s54 swap to an e46 involves additional wires to the exist harness for s54 specific parts. Then ultimate reworking the s54 kombi and DME to communicate with the sedan EWS and LKM to think its heart is suppose to be an s54.




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[Johal E32]

I've talked to Kalim and his garage maybe the official host garage for my car when I find an m3.


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Hey man, hit me up if you need a extra set of hands on the weekends and holidays. I would be glad to take part in such an awesome swap! And, hopefully I can learn a few things from you guys, lol.

[derbo]

Hey man, hit me up if you need a extra set of hands on the weekends and holidays. I would be glad to take part in such an awesome swap! And, hopefully I can learn a few things from you guys, lol.


Will do. Once I find a donor. its getting shipped to Kalim's house. Then its part buying time, then its swappp time. It should take no more than a week of real mechanical work...LOL.

[midlandtech]

It should take no more than a week of real mechanical work...LOL.

Famous last words


~Steve
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[cyberkaa]

I finally had a chance to take the 332i out and open her up in the canyons. That S54 screaming away under the hood makes all that work worth it. :)

http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/qq292/cyberkaa/E46/Hwy9_by_Mandy_1.jpg

Derbo, hurry up and get a donor!

[JKO_ZHP]

:like

[cakM3]

I finally had a chance to take the 332i out and open her up in the canyons. That S54 screaming away under the hood makes all that work worth it. :)

http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/qq292/cyberkaa/E46/Hwy9_by_Mandy_1.jpg

Derbo, hurry up and get a donor!

Kalim, it's nice seeing you here on this forum....I've been following your build thread at E46F....epic build! :thumbsup I learned about your build from Dmax "Doug" back when you were already taking off your old engine... I have to say you did it right....glad to see you!

[az3579]

Wow, here's the 332i I've been drooling over for years.
I'm gonna go faint now.

[cyberkaa]

Kalim, it's nice seeing you here on this forum....I've been following your build thread at E46F....epic build! :thumbsup I learned about your build from Dmax "Doug" back when you were already taking off your old engine... I have to say you did it right....glad to see you!

Haha, that Doug is such a character.
Thanks, Charlie. Glad to be here.


:like


Wow, here's the 332i I've been drooling over for years.
I'm gonna go faint now.

Thanks, guys!

[derbo]

Kalim I'm still searching :)


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[UdubBadger]

awesome.


thought about this swap again today... mmmmmm :drool

[cakM3]

Haha, that Doug is such a character.
Thanks, Charlie. Glad to be here...

I have to see your ride again.....need to :drool :drool :drool :drool again...;) Really loved how you did your project....if I were to do a swap this is exactly how I would do mine ( no, not taking my ///M apart :) ):thumbsup

[cyberkaa]

Kalim I'm still searching :)


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Take your time, but hurry up! :)


awesome.


thought about this swap again today... mmmmmm :drool


I have to see your ride again.....need to :drool :drool :drool :drool again...;) Really loved how you did your project....if I were to do a swap this is exactly how I would do mine ( no, not taking my ///M apart :) ):thumbsup

Thanks, guys. I just did a couple of photo shoots after the canyon cruises over the long weekend. Will try to remember to post a few pics here.

[derbo]

a little push or so from you might help kalim ;)

[az3579]

Thanks, guys. I just did a couple of photo shoots after the canyon cruises over the long weekend. Will try to remember to post a few pics here.

Pleeeeeeease!




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[JupiterBMW]

So I have a thought. It seems that the hardest part of this swap is getting the wiring to accept the other two doors... That being said, why not just swap in an engine from a car that already has 4 doors...?? Cough*S85*cough...


Sent from my hybrid iPhone 4/4S... :shifty

[az3579]

So I have a thought. It seems that the hardest part of this swap is getting the wiring to accept the other two doors... That being said, why not just swap in an engine from a car that already has 4 doors...?? Cough*S85*cough...


Sent from my hybrid iPhone 4/4S... :shifty

It's a much more complicated swap with the electronics. Completely different generation cars...


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[cakM3]

So I have a thought. It seems that the hardest part of this swap is getting the wiring to accept the other two doors... That being said, why not just swap in an engine from a car that already has 4 doors...?? Cough*S85*cough...


Sent from my hybrid iPhone 4/4S... :shifty

Not meaning to go off-topic but had to comment on this...

Jon, as awesome as the S85 is there are more variables to address to make this work. With the E46 ///M3, fitting the S85 is already tight. The mounts are not the same and people who have done this swap had to fabricate unique motor mounts and engine supports to get the S85 to fit in. Also as BP posted, there are the engine electronics. They are not compatible with the E46 chassis so that's another whole can of worms to open so to speak. Even if you can get the engine to fit into the sedan chassis then there are the engine management system of the E60 ///M to deal with. If money was no object then I suppose a person can find the necessary resources to make this happen...:thumbsup

Frankly, I highly doubt the S85 will fit into the sedan chassis but I do know that you can fit in an S65 motor from an E92 ///M :drool Even with the S65 motor, there will still be the electronics to deal with. Either way, it's not going to be an easy job....you got to have very deep pockets....

[JupiterBMW]

People put the S85 into E30s all the time... If you had a complete donor M5, you could swap everything...

[UdubBadger]

truth... doesn't mean its easy though.

[az3579]

People put the S85 into E30s all the time... If you had a complete donor M5, you could swap everything...

All the time isn't true in the slightest. Te people that do this have the time and more importantly the resources to pull this off. This isn't a cheap swap by any means, which is what prevents the majority of people from doing it.

It's definitely no E30 > S50/52 swap.


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[derbo]

S85 Manual Transmission seems rare too. Does it interchange with other transmissions??

OT:
Kalim now has a new goal, when I told him his door indicator lights on the M3 Cluster does not go off when the rear doors are open. LOL.

[Vas]

Only way I would attempt this is if I had a wrecked e46 m3 as the donor car. Otherwise boost is in my future for the zhp.

[Hermes]

Just wondering (Kalim/Terry/other Cali based S54 owners), any chance one of you can post your smog test? I want to be armed before getting refereed from CARB to swap something into the 320. I'm thinking that S54 will probably be the easiest of the late NA motors to get approved

[cakM3]

Sometimes I wish I didn't see this discussion thread only because I have been thinking about getting my 3rd BMW in a few years and have had three cars floating around in my head.... an E30 M3, E46 M3 vert, or now an Audi RS4.

Then when Kalim joined our forum and with Vas' recent post concerning an S54 swap in the ZHP......I could think about either doing the S54 swap or supercharging my ZHP.... I'm kinda liking the S54 swap since I know where I can source an S54, DME, ECU, Guage cluster, and everything else to do this swap to my ZHP...;)

Dammit!!! (look at my avatar)

[Johal E32]

I think the chevy LS v8's are a great route btw. Cheaper to buy, the T56 manual tranny's are bullet proof, the engines are not that bad on gas. The engines are really cheap to maintain, modify, and they are surprisingly light and small.

E36's have this swap, I am convinced I want a ls2 or ls3 for my E46 a few years down the road. My goal is about 400-500 rwhp :)

[GMATT]

Stock LS6 with a fairly mild cam and good headers, put down 440 RWHP on my Camaro SS. This was with stock heads and a good tune FTW!

Gary

[Johal E32]

Stock LS6 with a fairly mild cam and good headers, put down 440 RWHP on my Camaro SS. This was with stock heads and a good tune FTW!

Gary

that's sweet! There is a dude on bimmerforums who makes 400rwhp out of his ls1 e36 m3. I'm guessing he has cams, (obviously headers for fitment in the E36), tune, intake, pulleys etc..

[nike001]

Stock LS6 with a fairly mild cam and good headers, put down 440 RWHP on my Camaro SS. This was with stock heads and a good tune FTW!

Gary

You haz SS?

[az3579]

I think the chevy LS v8's are a great route btw. Cheaper to buy, the T56 manual tranny's are bullet proof, the engines are not that bad on gas. The engines are really cheap to maintain, modify, and they are surprisingly light and small.

E36's have this swap, I am convinced I want a ls2 or ls3 for my E46 a few years down the road. My goal is about 400-500 rwhp :)


You forgot to mention that they respond incredibly well to simple bolt-on mods and make some great power with them to boot. Definitely nothing like our German engines. :(

[Hermes]

yeah... but displacement has a big deal to do with that. The relatively little hp that comes out of those engines for how large they are would be laughed at in a European maker. Theoretically a similar sized S65 would put down around 600hp (my math is based on 5.9L LS6 comparison)



edit: I'll just end the comparison with this

Dinan stroker S85
5.7L Naturally Aspirated V10
Stage 3 tune
680hp

[Johal E32]

yeah... but displacement has a big deal to do with that. The relatively little hp that comes out of those engines for how large they are would be laughed at in a European maker. Theoretically a similar sized S65 would put down around 600hp (my math is based on 5.9L LS6 comparison)



edit: I'll just end the comparison with this

Dinan stroker S85
5.7L Naturally Aspirated V10
Stage 3 tune
680hp

Yeah, but the "european" engines will be laughed at when a vette with simple bolt ons.. As BP mentioned the lsx with simple bols on respond very well. With some cams, pulleys, headers, exhaust, intake, tune, it will rape the s85. (that is a ls6 or ls7)

Dinan mods are also super expensive..


found this from a vette forum


I've been farting around looking at the most popular LS7 cams and comparing them to what I've been spec'n for my motor: forged 427 with milled stock LS7 heads, that are getting just a touch of chamber work. Here's what I've gathered about the QM600 & Katech's Torquer:

QM600

Specs:113+X 23X/25X 6XX/6XX (14-24.5 overlap @ .050”)

Carlos from Vette-Air, “QM600 cam have made everyone pretty happy. With bolt-ons and tuning you are looking at 545 to 565 and with ported heads 575to 600 on pump gas!!!”

Dyno Results stolen from all over the place:
Peaks at 6500 with very little taper

600.3 RWHP / 534.2 Torque (RPM ported heads)

598 HP / 529 TQ (WCCH ported heads and bolt ons)

564RWHP / 501RWTQ bolt ons

Stock Dyno: 432 rwhp /419 rwtq

Bolt Ons & Tune: 490 / 462

QM600: 555.6 / 485.5

542rwhp and 485 ft-lbs (with only 24 peak timing)

542RWHP 482RWTQ w bolt ons 91 oct (baseline stock was 448 hp though)

[Hermes]

I agree with your points (that stroker is more expensive than a complete Vette), and I'll even say I would definitely agree that for how cheap and easy to tune those motors are it makes perfect sense for a swap candidate.

I still prefer to open my engine bay and see the same manufacturer stamped (nowadays on plastic) on the engine even if it's not the same engine that the car originally came with.

[az3579]

I prefer to keep in the same make as well, though how much it makes sense to put an LSx might sway the mind easier than you think after you HEAR the engine!


Sent from my iPhone 4S from Tapatalk

[cakM3]

I agree with your points (that stroker is more expensive than a complete Vette), and I'll even say I would definitely agree that for how cheap and easy to tune those motors are it makes perfect sense for a swap candidate.

I still prefer to open my engine bay and see the same manufacturer stamped (nowadays on plastic) on the engine even if it's not the same engine that the car originally came with.

+1

I'm also under the same mindset.

[elric]

I agree with your points (that stroker is more expensive than a complete Vette), and I'll even say I would definitely agree that for how cheap and easy to tune those motors are it makes perfect sense for a swap candidate.

I still prefer to open my engine bay and see the same manufacturer stamped (nowadays on plastic) on the engine even if it's not the same engine that the car originally came with.

+1 ... agree completely.

[Torxuvin]

Admittedly, I have not read all the way through the thread. But yes, the LS1 is a fantastic engine. I was always worried about the vanos and the cooling system with my S54. The ls1 is super stout. I will probably do cams and heads next year. (shooting for 400-450rwhp) It should also be much cheaper than a S54 would be both to buy and maintain. And the sound!!!! I toyed around with the idea of buying a high mileage e36 m3 sedan and swapping in a LSX.

Personally, I probably won't do any engine mods to the ZHP. Maybe the basics.

The vette makes a great weekend car you guys. Don't be afraid of the old man stigma. I'm 24. ;)

[cyberkaa]

S85 Manual Transmission seems rare too. Does it interchange with other transmissions??

OT:
Kalim now has a new goal, when I told him his door indicator lights on the M3 Cluster does not go off when the rear doors are open. LOL.

LOL. Yeah, I took a look around when I was looking at the M-Track mode retrofit DIY and I think I have a pretty good shot at making those rear door LEDs come on. They're most likely just missing.


Just wondering (Kalim/Terry/other Cali based S54 owners), any chance one of you can post your smog test? I want to be armed before getting refereed from CARB to swap something into the 320. I'm thinking that S54 will probably be the easiest of the late NA motors to get approved

Should be going soon. The other local guy I helped with his swap did get it passed successfully. I still have a while before my smog check so I've been procrastinating, haha.


Sometimes I wish I didn't see this discussion thread only because I have been thinking about getting my 3rd BMW in a few years and have had three cars floating around in my head.... an E30 M3, E46 M3 vert, or now an Audi RS4.

Then when Kalim joined our forum and with Vas' recent post concerning an S54 swap in the ZHP......I could think about either doing the S54 swap or supercharging my ZHP.... I'm kinda liking the S54 swap since I know where I can source an S54, DME, ECU, Guage cluster, and everything else to do this swap to my ZHP...;)

Dammit!!! (look at my avatar)

:rofl

[terraphantm]

I agree with your points (that stroker is more expensive than a complete Vette), and I'll even say I would definitely agree that for how cheap and easy to tune those motors are it makes perfect sense for a swap candidate.

I still prefer to open my engine bay and see the same manufacturer stamped (nowadays on plastic) on the engine even if it's not the same engine that the car originally came with.

Not only that, but to run an LSX, you're going to lose most of the electronic integration. I would think there's no chance it'll pass emissions inspections, and you will almost definitely lose things like traction control and cruise. Sticking with the same manufacturer / same generation allows you to retain most of the other stuff.


For California, I think one issue with an s54 swap might be emissions. IIRC M3s are LEV while 325s and 330s are ULEV (or SULEV in the case of the M56). I don't know if going to a dirtier engine is allowed. Z4M is ULEV, probably because of its secondary cats.

[Dave_B]

Just read through this entire thread.

So much for my ZHP being "fast" HOWEVER...

It makes a perfect first car for my Daughter in 2 years, and a great second car for my wife soon.

That leaves me with some thinking to do...

[cyberkaa]

Not only that, but to run an LSX, you're going to lose most of the electronic integration. I would think there's no chance it'll pass emissions inspections, and you will almost definitely lose things like traction control and cruise. Sticking with the same manufacturer / same generation allows you to retain most of the other stuff.


For California, I think one issue with an s54 swap might be emissions. IIRC M3s are LEV while 325s and 330s are ULEV (or SULEV in the case of the M56). I don't know if going to a dirtier engine is allowed. Z4M is ULEV, probably because of its secondary cats.

It's CA BAR legal to swap in an S54 in spite of being in a dirtier emissions class.
You can swap in an LSX and make it legal as long as it carries all of the LSX emissions equipment (with the usual restrictions on model year and type of vehicle).
Source: spoke to a BAR representative.

You can also buy CARB legal crate motor swap kits. Look up the E-Rod kits from GM.

I believe it's possible to maintain DSC functionality without having the stock ECU.

[az3579]

Not only that, but to run an LSX, you're going to lose most of the electronic integration. I would think there's no chance it'll pass emissions inspections, and you will almost definitely lose things like traction control and cruise. Sticking with the same manufacturer / same generation allows you to retain most of the other stuff.


For California, I think one issue with an s54 swap might be emissions. IIRC M3s are LEV while 325s and 330s are ULEV (or SULEV in the case of the M56). I don't know if going to a dirtier engine is allowed. Z4M is ULEV, probably because of its secondary cats.

Some states have weird engine swap laws, such as CT. You can swap in any engine that's the same model year or newer, but anything older (even if it's the same generation but one model year older) is forbidden. Explain to me how a 2003 S54 is any different than a 2006 one, CT. :shifty

[cyberkaa]

Some states have weird engine swap laws, such as CT. You can swap in any engine that's the same model year or newer, but anything older (even if it's the same generation but one model year older) is forbidden. Explain to me how a 2003 S54 is any different than a 2006 one, CT. :shifty

The breather is electronically controlled vs. always open for one thing. They're not completely daft, lol.

[Imola.ZHP]

Also this thread is quite the incredible read. http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=578901 It entails swapping the body parts...but you can just take what you need. JeppeJ is a legend!

OMG... I just lost 3 hours of my life reading that thread from page one to the end...

AND IT WAS TOTALLY WORTH IT!

[Hermes]

I'm just gonna throw a wrench in this thread by going non-ZHP...

my favorite sleeper mod, Carl's 525i(t) w/internally modified S52 swap + 6MT from a Z4

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c288/jhermes/9773EEA9-4E0E-497A-97FF-AE87D203C861-15937-000015E793F56D7D.jpg

[Newjack]

I'm just gonna throw a wrench in this thread by going non-ZHP...

my favorite sleeper mod, Carl's 525i(t) w/internally modified S52 swap + 6MT from a Z4

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c288/jhermes/9773EEA9-4E0E-497A-97FF-AE87D203C861-15937-000015E793F56D7D.jpg

So cool

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2

[ranger]

Reading this thread makes me appreciate my totaled ZHP replacement MB C55 even more. You can get a very clean C55 for $17,000 and it comes with high HP/TQ motor installed.

[danewilson77]

Reading this thread makes me appreciate my totaled ZHP replacement MB C55 even more. You can get a very clean C55 for $17,000 and it comes with high HP/TQ motor installed.

How easy is the C55 to work on diy?

Williamsburg, VA, Droid DNA, Tapatalk

[johnrando]

I'm just gonna throw a wrench in this thread by going non-ZHP...

my favorite sleeper mod, Carl's 525i(t) w/internally modified S52 swap + 6MT from a Z4

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c288/jhermes/9773EEA9-4E0E-497A-97FF-AE87D203C861-15937-000015E793F56D7D.jpg

Carl is my hero. This guy has everything BMW that is cool/awesome. :)

[ranger]

How easy is the C55 to work on diy?

Williamsburg, VA, Droid DNA, Tapatalk

I am looking at a brake job now to replace rotors-pads front and rear. Using the same places for parts that I used for my ZHP - ECS, Pelican, etc. I took it to the Atlanta MB stealership to do an auto trans service (fluid, filters, etc.) - did not want to DIY that - plus I knew the dealership would give a full inspection for free to get more work. They said I needed brakes and had a leaking rear seal.

I changed the oil recently with the same oil extractor I bought for the BMW - too easy with filter in front of engine same as BMW. The C55 has "no dipstick" and uses computer for oil level but has a "dipstick-like" access point in back of engine for extractor. Used Mobil1 5w30 from COSTCO - I am a heretic.

Need to change plugs soon. Note - the C55 V8 has 16 (sixteen) plugs so that will be pricey. Debating on whether to change plug wires (again - 16) at same time. I think I can get to all the plugs with extension. Stealership said they would leave plugs/wires alone until I have a problem.

Parts may cost more than the ZHP but I do not think parts will be significantly more than say a M3/M5.

Stealership wanted $1500 for the leaking rear seal. I have no oil where I park the car. That is going to "leak" for a long time.

[danewilson77]

Good info. Thanks.

Williamsburg, VA, Droid DNA, Tapatalk

[terraphantm]

It's CA BAR legal to swap in an S54 in spite of being in a dirtier emissions class.
You can swap in an LSX and make it legal as long as it carries all of the LSX emissions equipment (with the usual restrictions on model year and type of vehicle).
Source: spoke to a BAR representative.

You can also buy CARB legal crate motor swap kits. Look up the E-Rod kits from GM.

I believe it's possible to maintain DSC functionality without having the stock ECU.

The crate motors themselves may be Carb legal, but I still highly doubt it would pass unless you integrate the electronics such that the OBDII functions just as it would stock. That is not a trivial matter -- almost impossible without just using a GM body harness. Without such a setup, most swaps would fail even outside of CA. Since the GM "e rod kit" does include a wiring harness, you likely can get it to pass inspections. But I am pretty confident you will lose the ability to diagnose the other modules on the car

DSC is extremely integrated with the ECU. It depends in a lot of data sent over the CAN bus, some of it that wont be tracked by other ECUs (and almost certainly won't be sent in the appropriate format).


The breather is electronically controlled vs. always open for one thing. They're not completely daft, lol.

That's not really a part of the engine though. You could buy either piece as a spare part (or use your original if swapping into an M3 itself)

[cyberkaa]

The crate motors themselves may be Carb legal, but I still highly doubt it would pass unless you integrate the electronics such that the OBDII functions just as it would stock. That is not a trivial matter -- almost impossible without just using a GM body harness. Without such a setup, most swaps would fail even outside of CA. Since the GM "e rod kit" does include a wiring harness, you likely can get it to pass inspections. But I am pretty confident you will lose the ability to diagnose the other modules on the car.

Yes, the OBD2 port is a must for compliance, which is why the kit comes with the harness. Going back to your original post, that's how GM not only gives you a chance of passing emissions, but they guarantee it (assuming you don't do something disallowed).

You'll definitely lose some integration with the rest of the car, but if losing the ability to diagnose other modules is the main concern, there's a pretty painless solution to that.


DSC is extremely integrated with the ECU. It depends in a lot of data sent over the CAN bus, some of it that wont be tracked by other ECUs (and almost certainly won't be sent in the appropriate format).

I'm not fully convinced of extreme integration. The sensor information (wheel, crank, yaw, pressure, angle, brake, etc.) is read directly by the DSC module. AFAIK, the problem is that it talks to the DME to send a feedback signal to limit engine torque and to read current torque (Mk60). Also, considering these DSC systems are off-the-shelf units used in other makes and models, I really wonder how much work needed to get them function as standalone modules. One day, I'll get my spare Mk20 unit hooked up to something to see what happens.


That's not really a part of the engine though. You could buy either piece as a spare part (or use your original if swapping into an M3 itself)

By that logic, a piston isn't really a part of the engine. :p

To clarify, government bodies like CARB have already considered that it's going to be fairly common that a motor stays fundamentally the same over several years of production, just like the S54. It doesn't really matter that you install a MY2002 block in a MY2004 car because there's little in the way of telling them apart. However, they look at the bigger picture of an "engine" beyond block, pistons, and head when approving a swap, which includes everything from intake to exhaust. The breather is part of that tip-to-tail view of the engine along with SAP, cats, intake, etc. It's just a lot easier to say the engine has to be from a newer model year for simplicity. :)

[terraphantm]

Yes, the OBD2 port is a must for compliance, which is why the kit comes with the harness. Going back to your original post, that's how GM not only gives you a chance of passing emissions, but they guarantee it (assuming you don't do something disallowed).

You'll definitely lose some integration with the rest of the car, but if losing the ability to diagnose other modules is the main concern, there's a pretty painless solution to that.



I'm not fully convinced of extreme integration. The sensor information (wheel, crank, yaw, pressure, angle, brake, etc.) is read directly by the DSC module. AFAIK, the problem is that it talks to the DME to send a feedback signal to limit engine torque and to read current torque (Mk60). Also, considering these DSC systems are off-the-shelf units used in other makes and models, I really wonder how much work needed to get them function as standalone modules. One day, I'll get my spare Mk20 unit hooked up to something to see what happens.



By that logic, a piston isn't really a part of the engine. :p

To clarify, government bodies like CARB have already considered that it's going to be fairly common that a motor stays fundamentally the same over several years of production, just like the S54. It doesn't really matter that you install a MY2002 block in a MY2004 car because there's little in the way of telling them apart. However, they look at the bigger picture of an "engine" beyond block, pistons, and head when approving a swap, which includes everything from intake to exhaust. The breather is part of that tip-to-tail view of the engine along with SAP, cats, intake, etc. It's just a lot easier to say the engine has to be from a newer model year for simplicity. :)


If you look at the DSC functions in the DME, you'll see that they're quite integrated. From what I can tell, the DSC calls DME functions when it decides it's time to intervene. The DME also cares quite a bit about which DSC module it has -- in the MSS54's case, MK20 and MK60 are interchangeable since both were used throughout the model run. But there is one guy who lost all of his cluster data after installing CSL software. Not 100% sure why yet, but our theory is that the CSL *only* came with the MK60, while his car has an MK20. If you are really good at writing assembly level code, you can get an aftermarket ECU to talk with the stock DSC controller. Otherwise you won't.


How is that the same at all? The breather is external to the engine, a piston is internal. If I took the engine out of my car, that breather would stay behind with the wiring harness. So if you were to swap an 02 S54 into an 05 body, that breather would likely still be with the body. It's about as integrated into the engine as the intake air filter.

[cyberkaa]

If you look at the DSC functions in the DME, you'll see that they're quite integrated. From what I can tell, the DSC calls DME functions when it decides it's time to intervene. The DME also cares quite a bit about which DSC module it has -- in the MSS54's case, MK20 and MK60 are interchangeable since both were used throughout the model run. But there is one guy who lost all of his cluster data after installing CSL software. Not 100% sure why yet, but our theory is that the CSL *only* came with the MK60, while his car has an MK20. If you are really good at writing assembly level code, you can get an aftermarket ECU to talk with the stock DSC controller. Otherwise you won't.


How is that the same at all? The breather is external to the engine, a piston is internal. If I took the engine out of my car, that breather would stay behind with the wiring harness. So if you were to swap an 02 S54 into an 05 body, that breather would likely still be with the body. It's about as integrated into the engine as the intake air filter.

From the opposite perspective, the question is, how well can the DSC get along without any interaction with an ECU? If it means disabling the MSR subfunction of DSC, e.g., then that's acceptable to me.


That's just according to the definition you gave above, i.e. you could buy it as a spare part or use your original one.
The example you've given is called an "engine replacement" in CARB terminology. That's a concept different from an engine swap or "engine change," so I'll be more specific.
What az3579 said is that he doesn't understand why the rules state that an older engine is forbidden. My point is that it's simply because components like the breather, the harness, and the ecu are considered by the regulating body to be part of the engine; they can't be mixed and matched if they're different. For emissions compliance, you just need to have the emissions components valid for that year. It doesn't matter when the part was made, so yes, you could use a 2003 S54 in a 2006 M3, provided you kept the newer emissions components if any different. OTOH, you couldn't completely and solely use a 2003 M3 as a donor for a swap into a 2005 330i. You would have to supplement it with parts that fit the 2005+ S54 emissions requirements.

[terraphantm]

ABS should still work. I doubt traction control and stabity control will. This goes for swapping newer BMW engines to -- their systems are quite different. One work around might be to use the DSC from a Z4M. Chassis is essentially a lighter and shorter e46, but the z4M dme is extremely similar to the e9x m3 and m5 dme.

I think there are a few non California states that do restrict swaps by model year, regardless of emissions differences. Engine swap laws are notoriously difficult to find though, so I can't find a concrete example.

[cyberkaa]

Yeah, I'd expect ABS would keep working at the very least. I've got a few Mk60 and Mk20 DSC brains from both E46 M3s and non-M E46s and it would be interesting to see what the differences in the firmware are. So far, I know that both non-M Mk60 and Mk20 DSC work with MSS54. Using a Z4M DSC might not be a bad idea.

I'd believe it. They don't fit neatly into emissions laws, so those blanket requirements like restriction by model year are the easy way out.

[Hermes]

hmmm... maybe not so much boost



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18Q-1569WZc

[gr330zhp]

Really been thinking about this lately. The way I see it, the swap will cost less than getting a different car I would want(car that I would even consider swapping my ZHP for). And with the swap, don't think I would want any other car.


Sent from my iPhone 5.

[NoVAphotog]

:wub

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=1102352

[slater]

:wub

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=1102352

AWESOME!!

[BMWCurves]

I'd love to have that in my life. E46XiT's are so tempting to create.

[RUS_ZHP]

Seems like this swap is becoming really popular among enthusiasts. Here is what I've seen this past Sunday at local BMWCCA event.
Oxford green over tan interior with complete m3 drivetrain.
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160816/3d620a77529c16ecac76b8e3cf29f2ee.jpg


Last year I met another guy who made a complete swap on his 323it. Car was gorgeous!

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

[RUS_ZHP]

There was another interesting car at the event that you guys would appreciate.
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160816/47023f7f7cb46b1cd917abfef9cd54ae.jpg

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160816/8ca050212d585dc63e463e3fbb745a67.jpg

It has transmission, engine, dash board and some suspension components from e39 m5. In addition, it was supercharged with VT1-560 I believe.


Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

[UdubBadger]

That oxford green wagon is legit

[Karl Lazlo]

Crap. I hate reading threads like this. I want - nay, I need - an S54 coupe. Well, after my M3 is done.

[slater]

Seems like this swap is becoming really popular among enthusiasts. Here is what I've seen this past Sunday at local BMWCCA event.
Oxford green over tan interior with complete m3 drivetrain.
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160816/3d620a77529c16ecac76b8e3cf29f2ee.jpg

beautiful!!



There was another interesting car at the event that you guys would appreciate.
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160816/47023f7f7cb46b1cd917abfef9cd54ae.jpg

It has transmission, engine, dash board and some suspension components from e39 m5. In addition, it was supercharged with VT1-560 I believe.

crappity crapperson... that is amazing. i WANT!