Auto ZHP faster than Manual?

[Smolck]

Guys,

I've been watching some youtube videos and it would seem the auto ZHP's are faster. The 3.64 diff and whatever gearing they chose keeps the car above 5 grand between shifts at WOT, not to mention no 4k rpm power dip. My manual car with a 3.46 goes under 4800rpm (give or take) when at WOT. I don't know about you all, but car is best from 5k rpm to 6k rpm. If I could keep it where the auto cars do I would be faster.

Thoughts? Here is the video of the auto car, and notice, he short shifts from 1 to 2.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enmMidJVnNk

[BlackNTan]

Autos are WAY faster. Period. ;)

[M0nk3y]

Faster in a line? Maybe.

Faster in any curved portion ....never

Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk 2

[WOLFN8TR]

Sweet, makes me like my Auto even more than I do now.

:rockon

[BlackNTan]

BTW that sounds awesome

[Rovert]

Does it have something to do with a torque converter slip? I have no idea...just taking a shot in the dark. I was thinking on each shift the torque converter is slipping just a tad and keeping the engine RPM's up a tad higher as it locks up? As far as the 4K dip, maybe the torque converter absorbs and smooths out such small and irregular changes. I could be smoking though.....

[derbo]

An automatic transmission is 5speed auto with 3.64?

Manual is a 6spd with 3.07 right?

[brettbimmer]

I have run on the track against a stock auto zhp at an HPDE event (upper run group). Owner followed me out onto the track, and I was gaining a very, very small amount each lap with the manual. This was VIR full course, so there are some turns, but also some straight sections too.

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

[Smolck]

An automatic transmission is 5speed auto with 3.64?

Manual is a 6spd with 3.07 right?

Yea, but what makes the car stay in a certain RPM range under WOT conditions is the gear ratios in the trans. The auto seems to be closer and I thought the ZHP 6 speed was supposed to be a "close ratio" gear box.

[M0nk3y]

Yea, but what makes the car stay in a certain RPM range under WOT conditions is the gear ratios in the trans. The auto seems to be closer and I thought the ZHP 6 speed was supposed to be a "close ratio" gear box.

Lol close ratio. That's never going to happen in a standard 3.

The difference in shift points between the auto and manual are neglected. Actually, if my mind serves me right, max torque on your engine curve is around 4-4.5k.

Auto is always a higher ratio to make up for added weight in the car, as well as other things

Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk 2

[Smolck]

Lol close ratio. That's never going to happen in a standard 3.

Didn't happen in the M3 either.

330ci ZHP E46 Coupe manual
1st 4.35
2nd 2.5
3rd 1.66
4th 1.23
5th 1.00
6th 0.85

M3 Coupe E46 Coupe manual
1st 4.23
2nd 2.53
3rd 1.67
4th 1.23
5th 1.00
6th 0.83

[M0nk3y]

You forgot the +100 HP onto that ratio...let alone a 8000k redline, didnt you?

Rip through first gear and you'll find out that numbers don't tell the whole story.

M3 (and my car) are also 3.63 lsd diff

Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk 2

[Smolck]

You forgot the +100 HP onto that ratio...let alone a 8000k redline, didnt you?

Rip through first gear and you'll find out that numbers don't tell the whole story.

Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk 2

I've driven many M3's, I know what they can do. This wasn't about M3 vs. ZHP. I know the M rules all.

[az3579]

I have run on the track against a stock auto zhp at an HPDE event (upper run group). Owner followed me out onto the track, and I was gaining a very, very small amount each lap with the manual. This was VIR full course, so there are some turns, but also some straight sections too.

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk


Not an accurate comparison. You just as well be a better driver in reality, with higher exit speeds.
Even if you two lined up side by side and launched at the same time, it's still not an accurate comparison due to reaction time differences and the like. The difference, if there even really is one, is negligible.

Personally, I say "no" to the auto being faster from a standstill. You can launch a manual as you please. An auto is sluggish off the line. Once the auto gets going it's fine, but that launch is the advantage the manual has.

From a roll, well, who knows. As I said, negligible.

[Newjack]

Torque converter means slightly less power and the auto trans means more weight. The RPM difference between the two transmissions is negligible. If anything, there is more torque just below 5k than above 5200.

Like everyone else has said, the differences are very minor, but the manual would be "faster".

[M0nk3y]

Didn't happen in the M3 either.

330ci ZHP E46 Coupe manual
1st 4.35
2nd 2.5
3rd 1.66
4th 1.23
5th 1.00
6th 0.85

M3 Coupe E46 Coupe manual
1st 4.23
2nd 2.53
3rd 1.67
4th 1.23
5th 1.00
6th 0.83


I've driven many M3's, I know what they can do. This wasn't about M3 vs. ZHP. I know the M rules all.

Then why do you even want to compare?


Not an accurate comparison. You just as well be a better driver in reality, with higher exit speeds.
Even if you two lined up side by side and launched at the same time, it's still not an accurate comparison due to reaction time differences and the like. The difference, if there even really is one, is negligible.

Personally, I say "no" to the auto being faster from a standstill. You can launch a manual as you please. An auto is sluggish off the line. Once the auto gets going it's fine, but that launch is the advantage the manual has.

From a roll, well, who knows. As I said, negligible.

Not to mention, you can pick what gear you want to be in when the auto rather chooses. Yes you can do overdrive but you can't hold a high RPM...it will force you to shift.

[Pip]

Since we are on the topic of autos I noticed that when I WOT in manual mode I can't select the shift points - automatically red lines. However if I push the gas pedal to the first resistance which is pretty much WOT but not all the way (WOT takes a little more push and is noticeable because it's almost like engaging a switch) I have full control over the shift points and can hold it at any RPM I want.

Auto owners let me know of you have experienced the same thing.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Hornung418]

Sean, what' you are experiencing is the kick-down. When you are WOT, the throttle position is at 80%, only when you engage the kick-down does the throttle engage 100%. This isn't exclusive to automatics, though. The red line shift point is a matter of Transmission ECU programming. Remember you are Eurocharged :)

[WOLFN8TR]

Auto is faster.... :mwah

[danewilson77]

Then why do you even want to compare?

Wasn't this just a simple discussion point....ZHP vs. ZHP...one auto (with its diff) and one manual?

Sent from Williamsburg, VA USA

[az3579]

Sean, what' you are experiencing is the kick-down. When you are WOT, the throttle position is at 80%, only when you engage the kick-down does the throttle engage 100%. This isn't exclusive to automatics, though.

I'm pretty sure it is... only the automatics have the kick-down switch. Manuals do not... :confused

[M0nk3y]

Wasn't this just a simple discussion point....ZHP vs. ZHP...one auto (with its diff) and one manual?

Sent from Williamsburg, VA USA

This is what I thought.

Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk 2

[brettbimmer]

Not an accurate comparison. You just as well be a better driver in reality, with higher exit speeds.
Even if you two lined up side by side and launched at the same time, it's still not an accurate comparison due to reaction time differences and the like. The difference, if there even really is one, is negligible.

Personally, I say "no" to the auto being faster from a standstill. You can launch a manual as you please. An auto is sluggish off the line. Once the auto gets going it's fine, but that launch is the advantage the manual has.

From a roll, well, who knows. As I said, negligible.

BP, I totally agree with you. This was far from a scientific test, and was just my observations at the track. As you noted (and I should've specified) there are way, way too many variables in play to call this as accurate info. IMHO the auto vs. manual debate offers negligible differences, depending on car setup & driver skill, all else being equal. Sadly, I doubt any factory test numbers, or other test figures are trustworthy either, for the same reasons. :crying

[Smolck]

This is what I thought.

Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk 2

It was until your non M comment and the "lol" about closer gear ratios. I simply stated that the M's don't have it either and you spiraled out of control about how great the M cars are to which I have no argument.

[danewilson77]

Ok....so...we are now past the ///M issue. Good. Let's stay on point.

Sent from Williamsburg, VA USA

[danewilson77]

It seems to me the question at hand are:

1. which car is faster, the auto or manual ZHP, in a straight line test?

-This assumes when driving the auto...you mash it off the line (and continues through the 1/4 mile).....and the manual driver hits all shift points, at the optimal time and with max fluidity.

2. which car is faster, the auto or manual ZHP, in a track type setting?

-This assumes same expert driver, drives both cars.

[M0nk3y]

It was until your non M comment and the "lol" about closer gear ratios. I simply stated that the M's don't have it either and you spiraled out of control about how great the M cars are to which I have no argument.

No, actually I didn't at all.

If it's the same ratio on the same engine...great. But it isn't.

You fail to still realize that.

Enjoy.

IMO Manual is better at both. You chose your shift points, and it's always ideal to short shift to gain torque in any setting IMO. HP drops off alot in last RPMs

[JKO_ZHP]

If we've got another ZHP coupe out in SoCal, I'd be all for going on a flat, straight road and run some comparison tests :thumbsup
Make a YouTube clip or something.

[Hermes]

there are many of us in the Republic of SoCal, come down to autoX one month in SD and we'll get our answers

[terraphantm]

Yea, but what makes the car stay in a certain RPM range under WOT conditions is the gear ratios in the trans. The auto seems to be closer and I thought the ZHP 6 speed was supposed to be a "close ratio" gear box.

The auto has fairly closely spaced gears *until* the 3rd-4th shift. At that point there is a very large drop from what I remember. I did occasionally feel that the autos felt torquier in the lower gears... but 4th and 5th gear really destroyed it for me. Those cars were begging for another gear in between.

[terraphantm]

No, actually I didn't at all.

If it's the same ratio on the same engine...great. But it isn't.

You fail to still realize that.

Enjoy.

IMO Manual is better at both. You chose your shift points, and it's always ideal to short shift to gain torque in any setting IMO. HP drops off alot in last RPMs

I think the point Smolck is trying to make is that the M-cars have gears that are spaced just as far. In fact, the Z4M gearbox is the same as the 330 6MT box (though the input spline itself may be different). And the combination of the higher redline and shorter diff makes it so that the M3 and Z4M reach their redlines at the same respective road speeds.

Now the reason it isn't much of an issue on the S54 equipped cars is that we have really flat torque bands. While our peak torque is at 5k, the torque at 2k is damn close. So pretty much no matter where or revs fall, our engines are ready to respond.

[derbo]

according the gear ratios:

Manual Zhp

1st Max 38mph
2nd Max 66mph
3rd Max 99mph
4th Max 134mph
5th Max 165mph
6th Max 194mph

Auto ZHP
1st Max 38mph
2nd Max 69mph
3rd Max 99mph
4th Max 139mph
5th Max 188mph

This is assuming the rear end is 3.07 on manual and 3.64 on the auto. I think the auto feels to pick up faster than the 6speed at lower speeds too.

[Hermes]

The auto has fairly closely spaced gears *until* the 3rd-4th shift. At that point there is a very large drop from what I remember. I did occasionally feel that the autos felt torquier in the lower gears... but 4th and 5th gear really destroyed it for me. Those cars were begging for another gear in between.

+1000000, I don't like that shift at all. That's part of the reason why mine will get a new gearbox (along with engine swap) one day. I even would have rather had a SMG2 box if that was available. I have another project to deal with first so the ZHP will probably still have a slushbox for the next few years

[Smolck]

I wasn't saying that I wanted a slush box, I'll always want a manual (for the reasons Monk3Y mentioned), but it just seemed that the auto's trans gearing kept it higher in the rpm range during hard acceleration. What I really want to know is why the auto doesn't suffer from the 4k dip, what is that all about?

[danewilson77]

What I really want to know is why the auto doesn't suffer from the 4k dip, what is that all about?

Especially if its DISA related, like we claim. Auto has DISA as well. Trans/DME software seems to make more sense now.

Sent from Williamsburg, VA USA

[Smolck]

Especially if its DISA related, like we claim. Auto has DISA as well. Trans/DME software seems to make more sense now.

Sent from Williamsburg, VA USA

What we need is for an automatic owner to swap in a 6 speed and not code the car. Just trick the trans to think it is in neutral and drive it to see if the dip is there.

In all seriousness, why can't BMW make a manual car not have the dip but the auto they can?

[terraphantm]

What we need is for an automatic owner to swap in a 6 speed and not code the car. Just trick the trans to think it is in neutral and drive it to see if the dip is there.

In all seriousness, why can't BMW make a manual car not have the dip but the auto they can?



I think it has more to do with how autos work. Based on the gear ratios, the 1-2 drop should be larger than in a manual. So that means the torque converter isn't locked when entering 2nd gear. And since the torque converter allows slip by design, the 4k RPM dip probably isn't as pronounced since it's effectively averaged out by the slip

If you were to slip your clutch for a few seconds while entering 2nd, you may achieve a similar effect. At the cost of your clutch of course

What I do know is that it's not a software issue -- DME has the same software for auto and manual E46s. To eliminate the EGS error codefrom the DME, you only have to clear the adaptations. The rest is just recoding the cluster and DSC modules so that they don't look for an auto.