Starting concerns

[Dave_B]

Gents, I've experienced twice today where the car didn't want to start.

No click, no attempt to turn over, just flat out nothing! There are lights on the dash that you'd normally expect, but that's it.

I turn the key back, pump the clutch a few times, jiggle the gear selector (6MT)

A few attempts later, she fires up like normal.

Do these cars have Clutch Safety switches? Are they common to fail? Expensive? Bypass?

Thanks guys!

[Avetiso]

They do have clutch switches. If all is quiet, you can here a fuse click when you press your clutch in.

[alexandre]

You can deactivate it with a BMW Scanner - that way you'll be able to start it in neutral with the clutch depressed.

[BavarianZHP]

This has happened once to me. I was picking up a co-worker and couldn't start the car for a bit. Nothing was wrong, I guess I hadn't depressed the clutch all the way down? I thought I did at the time, but a couple of more attempts and she started up fine - hasn't happened again.

[nike001]

How's your battery? Mine did that a few times when my battery was going

[BRGcoopahS]

They do have clutch switches. If all is quiet, you can here a fuse click when you press your clutch in.

Noticed that the other day and wondered why it made that noise.

[echo46]

Check battery and connections. Lets start there.

[Dave_B]

Battery is "ok" Meaning if I leave anything on for a short period of time the battery will die.

Connections however are solid.

I haven't attempted to start since yesterday but plan to today.

[echo46]

Do you have a volt meter, if not have the battery checked. I'm thinking bad battery.i assume you don't have lights dimming etc which would be an alternator issue. Maybe starter or a bad coil, plugs? Lets start cheap and simple.

[Newjack]

Do you have a volt meter, if not have the battery checked. I'm thinking bad battery.i assume you don't have lights dimming etc which would be an alternator issue. Maybe starter or a bad coil, plugs? Lets start cheap and simple.

Def check the charge on your battery. O had this happen to me where lights and stuff would come on the dash, but the car wouldn't start. Checked the battery charge and it was something like 9.5 volts. One of the cells in the battery died so certain things would come on but I couldn't start the car.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2

[Dave_B]

Do have a voltimeter and will check the battery. Didn't have that problem at all yesterday, started the car 4 different occasions.

This morning, got in to go to work and took a few minutes of tinkering around, again pressing the clutch in again and moving the shift lever around. Finally she fired up.

The only reason I don't think it's battery is that there is no light dimming on the dash, no attempt to crank at all. Just like a car with an ignition kill switch, or key not talking to immobilizer or clutch safety switch.

I'll report back the VM findings later today.

[Dave_B]

And she decided to act up on my twice more today.

Same symptoms, nothing, nothing, start like nothing is wrong.

[Johnmadd]

Have you checked the voltage yet, results?

[Dave_B]

Glad you asked again. I had to work after hours today resetting a password on an ESX host.

Just checked it.

http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb133/00h2itr/6D703035-9469-4259-B827-8E033B876DEC-108-0000000C4767E315_zps12d73817.jpg

Was quite difficult to take a pic and have the 2 leads on it. LOL

[Johnmadd]

Is that when car is running or off?

[Dave_B]

Car off. Terminals connected.

[Johnmadd]

Can you do one while running?

[Dave_B]

Sure, give me a few minutes to wolf down dinner and head out there.

14 ~ 14.03 volts

[Johnmadd]

That all sounds good. I would say that crosse off the battery and alternator. Good stuff thus far, I will think more now...

[Johnmadd]

Does the clutch slip?

[Dave_B]

No, the clutch doesn't slip.

Keep in mind, it doesn't turn over at all. Turn the key, and nothing. No dimming of the lights, no click, no attempt to spin from the starter. Press the clutch a few times, jiggle the gear selector and magically when it feels like it fires up.

First thing in the morning, during the day, right after I just ran into the store. No pattern.

Really puzzling. Not knowing these cars all so well, it reminds me on a Honda of the EFI Main relay when it's going out. One thing I will look for next time I start, or it acts up is if the fuel pump primes. I assume that does that in position II of the ignition?

Thanks for the help too BTW.

[wsmeyer]

Sounds like the clutch switch to me. It's a little switch that the clutch pedal arm hits when it's fully depressed. You can see it under the dash above the pedal. You can use your meter to test it

[Dave_B]

Sounds like the clutch switch to me. It's a little switch that the clutch pedal arm hits when it's fully depressed. You can see it under the dash above the pedal. You can use your meter to test it

Any idea's what the voltages should read open and closed? Easy to replace? Or Bypass?

[wsmeyer]

To test you can just temporarily bypass the switch. I found a DIY with pics here:

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?p=13691365

[wsmeyer]

Press the clutch a few times, jiggle the gear selector and magically when it feels like it fires up.

It's this that makes me think it's the clutch switch.

The other thing you can try is next time it doesn't start, keep holding the key in the start position and don't wiggle it or anything. While doing that, let the clutch pedal out a little and then back in a few times. If that gets it to work it's almost certainly the clutch switch.

[Dave_B]

Interesting thought on the leaving key in ON position and moving clutch, hadn't thought about that. I'll give it a go, and if so see how much it is to fix, and if not cost effective, then wire it.

[wsmeyer]

Interesting thought on the leaving key in ON position and moving clutch, hadn't thought about that. I'll give it a go, and if so see how much it is to fix, and if not cost effective, then wire it.

Well, if your turning the key back and forth and pushing the clutch pedal in and out you're essentially wiggling two switches at once as opposed to just wiggling the clutch switch via the pedal.

Personally I would bypass it and if it solves the problem I'd then order the switch.

If it doesn't fix it there's a whole list of things between the ignition switch and the starter that could have gone bad.

[Hermes]

next time it acts up try to rolling start it in 3rd, if still no luck then it's definitely that switch

...or you could just re-code your car for clutchless startup

[Dave_B]

Well, if your turning the key back and forth and pushing the clutch pedal in and out you're essentially wiggling two switches at once as opposed to just wiggling the clutch switch via the pedal.

Personally I would bypass it and if it solves the problem I'd then order the switch.

If it doesn't fix it there's a whole list of things between the ignition switch and the starter that could have gone bad.

Makes perfect sense, eliminate 2 variables.

So of course she greeted me with not wanting to start this morning. Tried leaving the key forward and pressing clutch. Repeated a few times, nothing.

Moved the selector, pressed in clutch again and she fired up.

For giggles, and to take it off the list I'm going to try to wire the switch solid and see what happens from there over a day or 2.

[wertyu78]

Dave,

Try a different key. I had the exact same issue at the beginning of the year. I tried EVERYTHING and yielded no results. Finally it hit me that the EWS and key might've not been communicating properly. Don't be fooled if the fob unlocks the doors, mine did the same yet still did not start the car. It's a weird scenario. I didn't drive the car for two days for something so simple.


Good luck buddy. For my ZHP running again last night :)

[Dave_B]

Well... That's a problem. And could be THE problem.

I only have one key, one crappy, roundel worn off, non-door opening (remotely) key. But it's worked for some time. Odd that just now it would stop? I cannot re-initialize, the battery is dead in it and I didn't want to cut this one open and replace it until I did eventually get a second key.

I'm ok with it being the key, but only after doing the clutch bypass for testing which I'll do tonight and drive for a few days to make sure the issue is gone. If not, I'll start looking at key.

[wertyu78]

Well... That's a problem. And could be THE problem.

I only have one key, one crappy, roundel worn off, non-door opening (remotely) key. But it's worked for some time. Odd that just now it would stop? I cannot re-initialize, the battery is dead in it and I didn't want to cut this one open and replace it until I did eventually get a second key.

I'm ok with it being the key, but only after doing the clutch bypass for testing which I'll do tonight and drive for a few days to make sure the issue is gone. If not, I'll start looking at key.

Good plan. Keep me posted. If you go with a new key let me know what route you take. I'm now down to one key.

[Dave_B]

New key at the Greenville Century BMW is $185. I wonder if with CCA membership I can get 20% off of a key. Hrm, I'll call and check.

Odd observation I noticed this morning. If I leave the car unlocked, it seems to fire right up. It's out in the work parking lot and I have an eye on it. I'm leaving unlocked the rest of the day to see if that has anything to do with it as well.

[telijah]

That could also make sense. If unlocking the door manually doesn't let the car "know" it's been unlocked, it may be intentionally killing the starter. However, if you can solder at the level of a monkey, you can put a new battery in your fob. I did :)

[Dave_B]

Yep, I was planning on it. However, didn't want to do it with my ONLY key in fear that something stupid happens and I'm forced at that point to buy a new one.

Chalk up 4 more starts with no issues while doors are unlocked.

FWIW, I have NO problem getting a new key, and really like that idea. I just want to make sure that's it before doing so.

[telijah]

I think it would be difficult to tell 100% without a scan of the EWS maybe?

[wsmeyer]

I just got in my car, locked the doors with the remote and it still started with the key.

[Dave_B]

To add more to the key possbility...

Anytime my drivers door is open, the "indicator" for lights on, or door open beeps NON-STOP!

But only when the drivers door is open. None of the others are affected this way.

[wsmeyer]

To add more to the key possbility...

Anytime my drivers door is open, the "indicator" for lights on, or door open beeps NON-STOP!

But only when the drivers door is open. None of the others are affected this way.

It's supposed to do that if the key is still in the ignition but are you saying yours does it without the key in the ignition? That would indicate a bad ignition switch, not key.

[Dave_B]

Yes, it dings with the key NOT in the ignition.

However, it's done that since I got the car, prior to this issue.

[Dave_B]

She greeted me to a no start morning this morning.

No matter how many times I pressed the clutch, wiggled the shift knob I got nothing. I even tried locking the doors from the inside, attempt to start, unlock doors, attempt to start.

It wasn't until I stuck my foot out the door and rolled the car back about 6 inches and she fired right up. Weird, right?

Plan... bypass the clutch safety switch tonight to eliminate that from the list. (worked until about 10 PM last night, wasn't in the mood for car work) If that works, I'll replace the part. If it doesn't, then I'm going to the dealer for a new key.

[wsmeyer]

To add more to the key possbility...

Anytime my drivers door is open, the "indicator" for lights on, or door open beeps NON-STOP!

But only when the drivers door is open. None of the others are affected this way.

I don't know. Ever since you mentioned this I'm fairly certain it's the ignition switch itself.

Temporarily bypassing the clutch switch won't cost you anything though, and it sounds like you were going to want a new key anyway.

[Dave_B]

What's odd... it only did it this morning.

Fired up easily after that all day so far with 4 starts.

But yes, test for free and see what happens tomorrow morning. Then if it's key... I'll do that.

[wsmeyer]

Yeah but I wouldn't guess the key. The key does have a chip in it and if it's not talking to the car it could do exactly what you're experiencing. But we already know that something is wrong with your ignition switch as it thinks the key is still in it and dings when the key is out.

If I had to pick between a part that already has a problem developing a new symptom (ignition switch) or a new problem (key) I'd choose the ignition switch.

That's an expensive guess though, and we can't ignore the possibility that it is your starter. A bad starter solenoid, the round thing attached to the starter, would give the exact same symptoms.

[Dave_B]

Bypass ignition switch possible?

[wsmeyer]

Bypass ignition switch possible?

That would be hot wiring the car and I doubt that would be easy

[Dave_B]

I wonder if there is some testing that can be done. Can't imagine ignition switches for these cars are cheap.

When the wife gets back, I'll head out to the garage for the clutch switch bypass. Then see what happens tomorrow morning.

[Dave_B]

Well, clutch is officially bypassed for now and the car starts that way, no clutch pedal depressed.

The DIY's around are not 100% and assume you will know some things. I didn't take pics all the way through, but I'd be more than happy to help others, or if this is it, I'll take pics replacing it.

http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb133/00h2itr/B9513ECD-5253-46EA-811F-FFE7871A7F5D-108-000001160116D700_zps755f77f3.jpg

Knowing what I know now, the job can be done in less than 15 minutes.

[wsmeyer]

I've got my fingers crossed for you. That will be awesome if it turns out to be the cheapest part!

[wsmeyer]

Check this out:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/BMW-Steering-Column-Ignition-Switch-Lock-w-Key-E46-X3-5-Spd-Manual-99-05-OEM-USE-/221189993987?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item337ff37603&vxp=mtr

[Dave_B]

Check this out:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/BMW-Steering-Column-Ignition-Switch-Lock-w-Key-E46-X3-5-Spd-Manual-99-05-OEM-USE-/221189993987?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item337ff37603&vxp=mtr

WOW, thanks! I wonder if you have to initialize the key with the car, or what is the process?

[johnrando]

So, problem identified, with a workaround implemented, waiting for a permanent fix?

[Dave_B]

So, problem identified, with a workaround implemented, waiting for a permanent fix?

Well, I thought so when I jumped in this morning and she fired right up. Then went to gas station for a quick MD since I missed coffee. Same thing when leaving there.

I'm going to double check the connection I made was solid at lunch and go from there.

[Dave_B]

Beginning to wonder if this is the ignition switch after more web searching.

I clearly have the beep when the drivers door is open that doesn't go away. But I also have ONLY a dead key. I'm curious if anyone else has a key that doesn't work (remote functions, but starts the car) if they have the ding as well, or if that specifically identifies the ignition switch.

More reading on the constant dinging is the fuse 67 blown. I'll be checking that tonight.

[Johnmadd]

Next time it happens don't wiggle the shifter and just pull the key out and put it back in and see what happens.

[wsmeyer]

I did a little searching to try and figure out what you would have to do to get that replacement assembly from ebay to work and sadly I think I ended up finding why they are so cheap:

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=206415

I assumed that you would be good to go with a matching key / switch but apparently that isn't the case and it would take some complicated reprogramming of the EWS module to work.

These kind of electrical problems are a pain. The dealer could tell you what it is pretty quickly, but they would charge a diagnostic fee, the local dealer her that's $195. The only thing you can do yourself is keep testing and eliminating stuff.

A simple diagram would be:


[key / switch]
|
|
[clutch switch]
|
|
[other unknown relays / safety switches]
|
|
[starter solenoid / relay / motor]


But there is also an electrical signal that goes:

[chip in key]
|
|
[receiver in ignition lock]
|
|
[EWS module]
|
|
[DME]


And I have no idea how you would trouble shoot that.

I'll write something up in a little while how you can test and hopefully eliminate the starter but I'm running out of ideas after that.

[Dave_B]

Thanks gents.

New symptom if you will, today.

Had the didn't want to start twice this morning, and starts as the day progresses. Only today instead of firing up right away you hold the key in position 3 and it hesitates before firing up but it does indeed fire up. Not a long delay, more like a brief pause.

In doing a ton of reading this morning I'm going to check all of the fuses today. I'll check the voltage and for corrosion under the hood at the battery cable/terminal. I've got a voltmeter so I'm happy to test any voltages.

Also, if I can ever get it working I have the BMW dealership software DIS and SSS with the Toshiba T30 and the DK head. I just haven't had time to really mess with it to get it to communicate properly. If anyone has previous knowledge working with this, I'd appreciate it and then I can make copies if anyone needs it, or help those in my area save $$$ from dealership runs.

[Hermes]

so the bypass solve the issue? hmmm...

[wsmeyer]

so the bypass solve the issue? hmmm...

Bypassing the clutch switch did not solve the problem.

@JP - Do you know if there are other switches / relays inline that I labeled [other unknown relays / safety switches] above?

I think at this point it would be best to rule out the starter.

Here's a picture of the starter / relay / solenoid assembly in the E46:

http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?model=BW53&mospid=47707&btnr=12_1092&hg=12&fg=25&hl=7

The solenoid / relay is the part on top of the starter motor.

There is a big fat wire going from the battery directly to the back of the solenoid, and a second identical one that goes from the solenoid to the starter motor.

There is a smaller wire that attaches to the solenoid that comes from the ignition switch.

Inside the solenoid is a wire coil with a piston in the center. When the wire coil is charged, the piston snaps back and connects the two large connectors together that then turns on the starter motor. There is also a lever attached the front side of the piston that when the piston snaps back, pushes the starter gear forward and engages it with the flywheel.

If when you turn your key and nothing happens, there is 12V on the wire that goes from the ignition to the solenoid, it is 100% bad solenoid.

[Hermes]

^that could definitely be the issue. I can't think of any other relays/switches that should otherwise cause it to malfunction. IIRC there are two clutch switches, but the other one has to do with cruise control and won't affect the starting systems.

Dave, have you tried to rolling start the car yet? If it won't start up under it's own power, but a start when the motor has being cranked over due to a rolling start then I'm betting on your starter as the source of the issue.

[Dave_B]

So, your saying to have the wife turn the key while I check for 12V on the wire on the Solenoid?

Just trying to make sure I understand. And to get to the starter, I need to pull the cabin filter housing and all that, correct?

Sorry for the newb questions there, still learning my way around the bay on this car.

[Dave_B]

^that could definitely be the issue.

Dave, have you tried to rolling start the car yet? If it won't start up under it's own power, but a start when the motor has being cranked over due to a rolling start then I'm betting on your starter as the source of the issue.

I have not yet. I'm on a hill as it is so I'd be backing up and I've never in all of the MT cars I've owned started it rolling backwards. :) But I could very easily and slowly roll it down the driveway, and then be lined up to roll it down the street. Usually though, I'm not fussing with it long enough to do this. It almost always starts within a minute or so.

[wsmeyer]

You can bump start it in reverse. The ratio is between 1st and 2nd. There is no synchro on reverse though so you won't be able to get it into reverse once the car is rolling. You'd have to put it in reverse first and then hold the clutch in.

That is an easier test and if the car won't start it's gotta be the EWS system, i think :)

IF THE CAR DOES START, it doesn't really tell us anything though as we don't know if the intermittent problem was happening at the moment you bump started it.

To test the voltage at the solenoid you should be able to get an alligator clip onto the terminal and do it by yourself. Just to be clear though, we need to know if there is 12V at the terminal when the car won't start.

[wsmeyer]

Beginning to wonder if this is the ignition switch after more web searching.

I clearly have the beep when the drivers door is open that doesn't go away. But I also have ONLY a dead key. I'm curious if anyone else has a key that doesn't work (remote functions, but starts the car) if they have the ding as well, or if that specifically identifies the ignition switch.

More reading on the constant dinging is the fuse 67 blown. I'll be checking that tonight.

Did you ever check fuse 67?

I was looking at the wiring diagram for the Electronic immobilizer control unit and saw fuse 67.

http://www.bmw-planet.com/diagrams/release/us/e46/index.htm

I was trying to find a spot to check the V going to the solenoid that was easier to get to. I've determined it's a Black/Yellow wire running from the immobilizer control unit which is under the dash on the left side, to the solenoid. Not sure which is easier as the wife is driving the ZHP today.

[Hermes]

I have not yet. I'm on a hill as it is so I'd be backing up and I've never in all of the MT cars I've owned started it rolling backwards. :) But I could very easily and slowly roll it down the driveway, and then be lined up to roll it down the street. Usually though, I'm not fussing with it long enough to do this. It almost always starts within a minute or so.

I've started the 02 in reverse before when the battery was too depleted to spin the starter, you have to be in reverse before moving and since you've bypassed the clutch switch you will already be in gear once it starts - so be prepared to engage the clutch once it fires up

[Dave_B]

Wife is out in the car now. She enjoys a break from the Minivan (3 kids)

As soon as she gets back I had planned on checking all of the fuses anyway.

Tomorrow morning, if she doesn't fire right up, I'll start her in reverse backing down the driveway.

[Dave_B]

Fired up on first try this morning, albeit with the slight hesitation when you turn the key to position 3.

Didn't get a chance to check fuses last night, working late on a project tonight that is likely to bleed into tomorrow. Hope to check them before the weekend is gone.

[Dave_B]

Fixed the constant beeping. Seems that there was no fuse in position 67... That would certainly explain the issue.

No starting issues again today, just the delay from the time the key hits position 3 to actually turning over.

[Dave_B]

Knock on wood...

Since putting in Fuse 67 (5A) car hasn't had any issues starting again. No long press in position 3 either.

However, since the car loves me so much... she left a few marks in the garage. Guess I'll move towards these Oil leaks next.

[Dave_B]

And here I thought we were good. Had been starting normally. Brought it home yesterday and didn't start today until I tried at around 8 PM.

Nadda. No matter what. Checked the clutch bypass I did to make sure the wires hadn't separated. They were good (and put back to stock now too)

Tried to jump, nothing (even though light don't dim and all come on the dash correctly)

Not sure at this point if it's ignition switch, or starter. I'll dig around tomorrow and see if I can see the starter from up top and try to tap it while cranking and see if I have stuck solenoid.

I'm not convinced yet it's the ignition switch as the usual symptoms are not present. But, it could be key too I suppose.

Bosch New Starter on Amazon prime for $136.

http://www.amazon.com/Bosch-SR0448N-New-Starter/dp/B000BZIM54/ref=sr_1_1?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1363743347&sr=1-1&keywords=bmw+starter

That the correct one? Seems cheap for new, no?

[danewilson77]

I was gonna say key.

Sent from the HTC DNA, Williamsburg, VA and USA

[echo46]

Probably a Rebuilt starter? I replaced my starter last year. I got to it from under the car and some really long ratchet extensions. Let me know if you are going to replace it and I can give you some tips to make it go a bit easier. Maybe a basic question, but could it be a bad coil or did we rule that out? You can to the starter from up top but ts a reach.

[Dave_B]

How do I test for a bad coil?

If starter, and under the car... I'll be doing CCV, trans and other misc stuff at the same time.

[danewilson77]

How do I test for a bad coil?

If starter, and under the car... I'll be doing CCV, trans and other misc stuff at the same time.

Swap coils around and see if code follows the coil? Do you think you have a bad one?

Sent from the HTC DNA, Williamsburg, VA and USA

[echo46]

Do a quick search but if I remember, you need to disconnect the spark plug wires and check the coils with a volt meter. Cant remember but you have to set the meter to certain amounts? Not difficult. Test them before you start wrestling with the starter. Replacing the starter is not complicated just a bitch. You needed to run rachecet extensions along the bell housing to get to the bolts. PIA. Then you have to wiggle the devil out of a tight space.

[wsmeyer]

I was gonna say key.

+1

I was leaning towards ignition switch because it was doing other funny stuff. Now that that has been traced to a missing fuse I think the key is the most likely suspect, but without any way to test it I think it's still prudent to try and eliminate other possibilities.

Since you don't hear anything when you turn the key, the only way it could be the starter is if the solenoid itself went bad. In that situation there would be 12V on the trigger wire going to the solenoid when you turn the key, but the starter motor isn't turned on.

[Dave_B]

@ DW, no codes. Just no start. I think if it were a coil (they are individual for each cylinder here, right?) then I'd have a misfire, not a no crank condition

@ Echo. No concern with the DIY on the starter. Just wanted to make sure I get the right one and do the job once. I've had to "make" tools before. :)

@ Wsmeyer. Could def. be the key. But at almost $200 I want to make sure it's key before throwing parts at it. I don't mind spending the $ but want to be sure.

I'll likely pull the fuse that wasn't there in the first place and see what happens.

[Dave_B]

Well, wife is out of town, kids are in bed. I had some time.

Key is still a gamble, and after seeing this, and reading more about position 3 no crank I decided to just suck it up and pull the starter.

CAR NEVER LEFT THE GROUND, I NEVER GOT UNDER IT.

All work was done from the TOP of the car.

http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb133/00h2itr/17991E0C-3CDD-47E1-9F0A-16BBC4C337EB-4461-0000022DBEA7106B_zps45972beb.jpg

http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb133/00h2itr/09E8FF96-14BF-44A6-8275-919E0CA865E1-4461-0000022DC3D2C864_zpsf23e38b0.jpg

http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb133/00h2itr/A7583177-0F85-456B-9D66-99D109B387E2-4461-0000022DCA861759_zps4c805ccf.jpg

What a royal PITA this job is. Now... to jump the thing and see what happens. That'll be the test. Stay tuned.

EDIT: LOL@Pink 1/4 ratchet. Inherited by grandfather who painted them that way so nobody would steal them. Have 2 others, one sucks and one was in the travel tool box.

[wertyu78]

Never have seen someone changed the starter that way... Interesting!

[wertyu78]

*change

[danewilson77]

How long did it take you to remove from top like that?

Sent from the HTC DNA, Williamsburg, VA and USA

[wertyu78]

How long did it take you to remove from top like that?

Sent from the HTC DNA, Williamsburg, VA and USA

Great question. Morning Dane!

[Dave_B]

Morning Gents... From the top? Not terribly long. Brother the BMW Mech said to do it this way.

Had I known, I would NOT have removed some things, but it wasn't bad. Cabin filter, and surround. Blower motor cover, both of those heater hoses, plastic cover near the ABS unit, upper and lower intake boots.

The "lower" starter bolt takes some time. I read up, didn't have an E12 but that a 3/8" 'merican wrench would work. And work like a charm it did. I used another wrench on the the 3/8" to get some leverage to break the bolts loose. Your loosening at about 1/4 turn at a time, so it takes a while. I also stood on something that was about a foot high to get where I needed to be.

Once the bolts were removed, of course the starter was "stuck" I wedged a flat head screw driver between the mating surfaces and worked it around the starter as best as I could.

From there, I backed the starter all the way out and put the gear side facing down so that I could get to the electrical connections. I taped the 2 big wires together, and then I also taped the 2 small wires together (as to not lose track of either) Once the starter was completely lose of all bolts and connections, I slowly snaked it out near the actual ABS unit.

Total time? Hrm, good question. Maybe 3 hours?

[Dave_B]

Also, I did jump the starter last night. Whats interesting is that when jumped, the gear did turn. However it didn't extend out like it would need to, to engage the flywheel teeth.

I've gotta run to Century BMW for the OFHG anyway today, while I'm out I'm going to have the starter tested at Advanced auto or similar and see what they think.

[Dave_B]

New starter ordered, will be at the store tomorrow. Bosch new for $136 plus tax :o

FWIW, Advance Auto will price match amazon.

http://www.amazon.com/Bosch-SR0448N-New-Starter/dp/B000BZIM54/ref=sr_1_1?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1363743347&sr=1-1&keywords=bmw+starter

[danewilson77]

^Interesting.

[Dave_B]

Dane, I too was shocked!!! After the starter was tested (works sorta, but is clearly going out, gear doesn't want to extend or retract easily) the lady at the counter told me she had the reman in stock with core for $180 and the new Bosch for $223. I told her I was going to hold out, Amazon had one on sale. She asked the details, and I was able to find it on my phone. She asked me to hold on, she dug into her system and said she could match it. I was sold!

Even if that's not the end all to my starting problem, at $136 for a NEW Bosch unit and with it already out I couldn't say no.

[wsmeyer]

Glad that worked out. I'm surprised they matched Amazon.

"gear doesn't want to extend or retract easily"

The gear extending out is what turns the starter motor on so apparently the coils in the solenoid are working but the piston or the bendix arm is binding on something.

If you still have it it would be interesting to take it apart and investigate.

[Dave_B]

I absolutely plan to take it apart. If I can find the parts, I'll also get brushes for it and have it as a spare.

I rebuilt a Honda starter once and it worked out great... interestingly I got the rebuilt parts from Toyota since Honda didn't sell them.

If anyone has a lead on starter parts or rebuild kits, I'm all ears.

[Dave_B]

Def. not the starter itself, even though I'm going to replace it based on the symptoms of that starter.

I do not have power going to the solenoid when key is in the cranking position.

Do these cars have a Starter Relay? I've seen conflicting results on the web. Is there a way to test the ignition switch? I don't think it's a key issue at this point. With the key I have, I checked for power at all of the ignition switch terminals. I've got power to all of those then the key is turned on.

So that leaves some sort of relay, ignition switch itself or somewhere in the security system/EWS I think. But I know nothing of the EWS or testing procedures.

[wsmeyer]

Every car has a starter relay. I think you're getting conflicting results because ours is inside the solenoid body. If you take it off you'll be able to see it at the bottom. I looked some more at the wiring diagram in the link I posted above. I have a couple of ideas that I'll post when I get home.

[Dave_B]

Thanks.

Bound and determined to make some progress, I'm moving over to the OFHG to at least get something done right today.

[wsmeyer]

Ok, here's the wiring diagram. I've colored the relevant items:

7521

GREEN - Labeled S2 (Switch), Ignition switch
RED - Labeled L1 (Lock), EWS toroidal coil.

The toroidal coil is the receiver that "talks" to the chip in the key and sends a coded signal to the EWS module.

It's important to note that the Ignition Switch(S2) and the Ignition Lock(L1) are two different things. If you look on this ebay posting you can see the Ignition Lock is where the key is and the Ignition Switch is the part on the other side of the steering column:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/BMW-Steering-Column-Ignition-Switch-Lock-w-Key-E46-X3-5-Spd-Manual-99-05-OEM-USE-/221189993987?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item337ff37603&vxp=mtr

BLUE - Electronic Immobilizer Unit(EWS) is up under the dash, driver side.

ORANGE - Solenoid / Relay / Starter Motor(M)

I happened to pull up the Auto one but the only difference is S235 would be the clutch switch in a manual. Also note there are no other relays to disable the starter.

When you put the key in the Ignition Lock, the EWS talks to the chip in the key and if it is a valid key, it closes the circuit I colored LIGHT BLUE. Then, when you turn the key to P3, 12V goes from the Ignition Switch to the EWS, through the closed circuit to the solenoid and the car starts.

The wire going from the Ignition Switch to the EWS module is Black/Blue

The wire going from the EWS module to the starter solenoid is Black/Yellow

So, with the key in position 3:

Not 12V going from Ignition Switch to EWS = Bad Ignition Switch.

12V going to EWS but not from EWS to solenoid = Bad key, Ignition Lock, EWS module, and I have no idea how to figure out which of the three as it's not voltage going between the coil and the EWS, its a digital signal of some sort.

[wsmeyer]

One more thing, at the top of the diagram you can see all the fuses that supply power to the circuit; 67,14,105

The first thing I would do is check all of those, if any are corroded or look funny in any way just replace them.

[Dave_B]

Thanks a ton. I'm not too shabby with mechanical stuff, but I'm still dumbfounded with circuits and electronics.

I just looked at my fuse card in the car, none of those 14 and 67 are blown or look bad. Where is fuse 105 however? I GTS'd and can't find it for the life of me.

[wsmeyer]

Your welcome. To me it's like a puzzle, and I like puzzles.

I checked and fuse 105 is a large 50A fuse behind the glove box. That powers a lot of different things so I think we can safely rule that out.

[Dave_B]

Worth checking anyway? I mean... I'm this far LOL

[wsmeyer]

I wish I could link directly to it but go here:

http://www.bmw-planet.com/diagrams/release/us/e46/index.htm

In the search box lower left type in F105 then click Search

Click on the first thing it finds and you'll see a picture of the location.

[Dave_B]

Of course Chrome, IE and Safari won't load it.

I even reset my security to allow the unsigned Active-X to run.

There's only 5 back there? Can you tell me what number, from left to right it is please?

[wsmeyer]

I just figured out how to link directly but without navigation:

http://www.bmw-planet.com/diagrams/release/zi_images/G_062262.png

Great info here too:

http://www.bmw-planet.com/diagrams/release/us/zinfo/HEL0498FB1214_M0EWS.htm

[Dave_B]

Thanks again, I owe you big time!!!

I'm going to remove the glove box now just to see how it looks.

[Dave_B]

So... I can see where they would be. But there is a plastic cover over it. Can't see how to remove it and def. don't want to break any brittle plastic back there.

Anyone ever gotten into those fuses?

[wsmeyer]

A 50A fuse won't be a glass one that you can visually inspect. You'll have to just check for 12V on either side. It should have very low resistance so the V on both sides should be almost identical.

[Dave_B]

Getting to it is the issue. I'll get a pic. That picture you posted has this plastic cover removed and I can't see how it's exactly done.

http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb133/00h2itr/76451C6B-CEF3-4D9C-8834-6C2970B09FFA-4461-000002953943B81D_zpsec883a9a.jpg

There's a connection "box" that seems to terminate some wires coming from the firewall. Then below that is a flat piece that covers the fuses in that picture you posted.

[Dave_B]

Came to an interesting discovery this morning...

I knew there were 2 fuses missing a few days ago when this all started.

I knew one was 67, which fixed the door open chime with NO key in the ignition. I forgot which the other was, but had a suspicion it was 14.

I pulled 14 this morning and low and behold I now have power to the starter.

Stay tuned.

[Dave_B]

After some additional consulting I think I've got this thing figured out...

The PO must have known about the key not working any longer. I think he bypassed the EWS by pulling the 2 fuses thus the "bad" key still works.

I'm glad I did the starter anyway due to the engagement and disengagement issues, so now I won't have to go back to it. And I did the OFHG to make sure it was a productive weekend after all.

Once I do get a new key, then I'll put that fuse 14 back in and do some additional testing, but for now I'll leave it out. Now to go get a ratcheting external star for the starter, and a socket for the front bumper and button this thing all back up and take it out for a drive.

[wsmeyer]

I guess anything is possible with electronics but I am highly skeptical that this has solved your problem.

First, I can't wrap my head around how a missing fuse could cause an intermittent problem. If a fuse was corroded or loose I could understand, but blown or missing? That doesn't make any sense to me.

Second, I didn't post the text in this link because I know that these are the notes in the BMW service software regarding the EWS system:

http://www.bmw-planet.com/diagrams/release/us/zinfo/HEL0498FB1214_M0EWS.htm

Check out the paragraph "Key identification and start procedure". The EWS disables the starter and fuel injection, and sends a coded message to the DME when a valid key is inserted.

If you could just disable the EWS system by removing two fuses, are cars would be getting stolen right and left.

[Dave_B]

Well gents...

http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb133/00h2itr/36792D16-388F-4CAF-A7EC-805251B2960B-4461-000002D7A7F986AE_zps9c0f13f6.jpg

Going in from the top.

http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb133/00h2itr/03062962-ADA9-48BD-B188-0CFFF4352102-4461-000002D7ACD09786_zps7ec71ed3.jpg

That was the second start attempt... First one fired up but had wicked rough and low idle. Turns out the lower intake boot had come off of the throttle body. Fixed that real quick and good to do.

I'll deal with Fuse 14 another day. I'm whooped.

[alexandre]

Bauce. Good job!!

[Dave_B]

I'll try to write a DIY on the starter from the top. It's not nearly as bad as it may seem. Just don't drop anything LOL!

Basically, disconnect battery.

Remove intake, both boots, DISA, F connector on upper boot. Remove the cabin filter and housing along with the blower motor cover.

Remove plastic wall that covers the ABS.

Remove the 2 header hoses at the firewall (a little coolant will leak, prep a rag or paper towel below them)

Now you have access to the 2 bolts. I didn't have an external torx here at the house, but read a 3/8" standard wrench will work. It worked like a dream and lined up perfect. Slowly, about a 1/4 turn at a time, back those out.

Once the bolts are loose, then take a flat blade screw driver and wedge it into the mating surface from the bell housing to the starter. My alignment pin had some surface rust, so mine was a little tough to get out.

Once you have it out, push it towards the drivers side of the bell housing so you can expose the connections on the back. Remove those. I used electrical tape to keep the 2 large power wires together. I then used another piece of tape for the other 2 wires. Those last 2 are different size so post orientation won't matter.

With the starter loose of bolts and electrical connections, then snake it in front of the ABS unit towards the front of the car until you have enough room to lift up.

I think that's the jist of it. But if anyone has to do a starter anytime, I'd suggest this method over others. I'd be glad to walk anyone through it.

[Dave_B]

So far, she's been starting great all day!

[johnrando]

That would be so cool to be the final fix. So, save me some reading, what was it?

[wsmeyer]

So far, she's been starting great all day!

That is excellent news.

[wsmeyer]

That would be so cool to be the final fix. So, save me some reading, what was it?

I'm voting starter solenoid.

*** EDIT

Scratch that. I forgot he said that with the key in P3 there wasn't 12V going to the solenoid.

I have no idea what the problem was

:dunno

[Dave_B]

DAMNIT!!! Had response written out and page no load...

Anyway. What I personally think the final conclusion was...

PO bypassed the EWS by pulling the 2 fuses for Immobilizer. 14 and 67. Remember a few pages back, I had that door open chime even without the key in. Well, fuse 67 solved that. But while I was there, I looked for fuses that were missing. 14 was missing, so I put a fuse in there.

As I was diagnosing I figured for $136 I could put a starter in it, given mileage and lack of care by PO. While I had the wires exposed, I tested the "switch" that tells the starter motor to turn over (middle sized black wire) I didn't get 12v.

Testing resumed. I out of curiosity took both fuses 67 and 14 back out. This time I had 12v to the starter wire. Put 67 in, still had 12v. Put 14 in, no dice.

My assumption here is that the PO pulled the fuses to bypass the immobilizer due to the key. It's cheaper to pull fuses than pay for a $200 key. I continue this assumption since the pass front was hit, and fender liner is toast. Also, when the bumper was pulled, a broken fog light magically appears of my garage floor from the tunnel behind the fog.

Oh well, it was a great learning experience to dive into this car (remember, this is my first bimmer) and I learned I can do the starter from the top (much easier than anticipated, but still a PITA)

[sketchyd]

What are fuses 14+67 listed as on the fuse card? I can understand one fixing the chime, but bypassing ews by yanking a fuse doesn't sound right. It has to send an ok to the dme to start,no fuse would disable that. Congrats on doing that starter though, they're tough on the e46.

Tapped on a talk device

[MrMaico]

What are fuses 14+67 listed as on the fuse card? I can understand one fixing the chime, but bypassing ews by yanking a fuse doesn't sound right. It has to send an ok to the dme to start,no fuse would disable that. Congrats on doing that starter though, they're tough on the e46.

Tapped on a talk device

They're both listed as "immobilizer".

Nice work on the starter Dave. Sounds a lot better than laying on your back and doing it. I hope it isn't something I have to do anytime soon though.....not looking forward to it.

Barry

[wertyu78]

Does it start properly yet?!

[danewilson77]

Does it start properly yet?!

+1

Sent from the HTC DNA, Williamsburg, VA and USA

[Dave_B]

Absolutely!!! Starts better than it ever has.

Regarding fuses 14 and 67... both mention Immobilizer on the card. Both were missing when I bought the car. As I was going through the car I put both fuses in place.

How 14 bypasses the immobilizer by removing it, again I don't understand the logic other than with fuse in, no 12v to starter wire with key in P3. With fuse out, I get the 12v.

Looks like I'll be getting a new key sooner than anticipated so I'll revisit this shortly and post back up the results.

[alexandre]

Absolutely!!! Starts better than it ever has.

Regarding fuses 14 and 67... both mention Immobilizer on the card. Both were missing when I bought the car. As I was going through the car I put both fuses in place.

How 14 bypasses the immobilizer by removing it, again I don't understand the logic other than with fuse in, no 12v to starter wire with key in P3. With fuse out, I get the 12v.

Looks like I'll be getting a new key sooner than anticipated so I'll revisit this shortly and post back up the results.

Maybe the battery is completely dead ? I don't know if you can start the car without that. Battery replacements are like $50 through bmwgm5.com.

[Dave_B]

Which battery do you refer? The one in the key, or the trunk?

I know the battery in the key is dead for sure which is why I'm getting another key. Once I have a new key, that works and starts and so on with the car, then I'll cut open my key and replace the battery to have 2 working keys.

[danewilson77]

I wonder if there's any info out there on the net, about this cheesey ass fix (kind of like hockey tape covering the SRS light)?

[wsmeyer]

I have a theory based on the text document I posted above that explains what the immobilizer system does.

We know that there are 3 fuses powering the EWS module. By observation we learned that 67 powers the door chime circuitry. What if 14 simply powers the code hopping circuitry?

If I'm right, the steps would be:

0 - car in immobilized state
1 - insert key
2 - code goes from key to EWS
3 - if code valid, new code generated and sent to key
4 - key writes new code to chip
5 - sends write confirmation to EWS
6 - EWS mobilizes car


Your key would intermittently fail step 4.

If you disable just steps 4 and 5, the code hopping part, you would still have to have one of the 7 valid keys for that EWS, but even if one of those had a dead battery it would still start the car.

[Dave_B]

I wonder if there's any info out there on the net, about this cheesey ass fix (kind of like hockey tape covering the SRS light)?


100% agree'd. Key is my next step.

[Dave_B]

I have a theory based on the text document I posted above that explains what the immobilizer system does.

We know that there are 3 fuses powering the EWS module. By observation we learned that 67 powers the door chime circuitry. What if 14 simply powers the code hopping circuitry?

If I'm right, the steps would be:

0 - car in immobilized state
1 - insert key
2 - code goes from key to EWS
3 - if code valid, new code generated and sent to key
4 - key writes new code to chip
5 - sends write confirmation to EWS
6 - EWS mobilizes car


Your key would intermittently fail step 4.

If you disable just steps 4 and 5, the code hopping part, you would still have to have one of the 7 valid keys for that EWS, but even if one of those had a dead battery it would still start the car.

Being an idiot with circuitry, your logic seems spot on. I am very curious what happens with a new key. I'd love for this thing to be 100% correct.

[alexandre]

Which battery do you refer? The one in the key, or the trunk?

I know the battery in the key is dead for sure which is why I'm getting another key. Once I have a new key, that works and starts and so on with the car, then I'll cut open my key and replace the battery to have 2 working keys.

Oh if you only have one key, it's a good call to get a 2nd one. But yeah, the guy at bmwgm5 replaces key batteries for like $50.

[Dave_B]

It looks pretty easy to do on the key battery.

Knife
Glue
2020 Panasonic Battery

Just want a 100% working key with EWS non bypassed before monkeying with current non-working key.

[telijah]

Oh if you only have one key, it's a good call to get a 2nd one. But yeah, the guy at bmwgm5 replaces key batteries for like $50.

OK, scond time I've seen this, and that is highway robbery. I got mine on eBay for like $5, soldered on myself and was done. Now, if he is charging $50 for you to send him your key and have him do it all, then I guess that's a fair price.

[Dave_B]

If I'm right, the steps would be:

0 - car in immobilized state
1 - insert key
2 - code goes from key to EWS
3 - if code valid, new code generated and sent to key
4 - key writes new code to chip
5 - sends write confirmation to EWS
6 - EWS mobilizes car


Your key would intermittently fail step 4.


Back to this. I think your on the right track here.

I spoke to my step dad who taught the BMW step program for UTI down in Orlando. After some discussions, we agree that this is a likely reason the car starts without the key in the ignition. HOWEVER, the key is not energized by itself. Battery in the key only serves the door lock and trunk functionality. The RFID chip that communicates with the EWS is done via what we know as the EWS Antenna in the key cylinder.

He seems to think that yes, pulling the fuse bypasses a few steps of the starting process, but also thinks I may have a bad antenna.

We are going to mess around with the GT1 he brought me this weekend and see if we can get it to communicate to the DIS/SSS program. If that works, then we can watch live if the EWS see's the key chip or not. Then we can really troubleshoot this issue.

[Dave_B]

New key ordered today. Will @ Century BMW hooked it up!!!

Normally they key is $185 plus taxes. CCA membership does nothing for keys since they are cut in New Jersey.

I kindly asked for the KY and the guy at the counter, Will laughed and said he'll see what he can do. List is $166. NET is $149.

After handing my card over, I looked at the receipt. He gave me the key for the $149. HELL YES!

And now we wait for it to arrive.

[telijah]

...have you known that your step dad had the GT1 this whole time?

[Dave_B]

Yes. It's sitting at my house actually, has been for weeks.

The problem is I don't know how to make it work/communicate. I'm researching that now and anticipate getting it to work this weekend.

I also don't know how to work the software. I can't imagine it's totally public knowledge either. So... if I can get it to communicate this weekend, he's going to help me with the software side of things.

I have the Toshiba T30 that dual boots into SSS or DIS and the GT1 hardware as well. I can get into the software, but it doesn't communicate with the DK head likely due to IP issues. Taking a small Linksys/Netgear router home today.

http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb133/00h2itr/90FDAC2D-E299-4B54-9191-F8DC66DE1258-9601-0000043AD1A60DB3_zps08230ac2.jpg

[wertyu78]

Yeah.... Ordering a T30 tonight... send me the model number so I can get the right hardware to match up. I'm hoping you'll let me mirror the drive ;)

[aurelius]

If you get that GT1 to work, you may want to have a look at the BMW car/key options worksheet, downloadable PDF CLICK HERE (https://dl.dropbox.com/u/17676561/BMW%20docs/E46%20Car%20Key%20Options.pdf).

[Dave_B]

Thanks!!!!! How do I know if my car has the factory alarm? I do have the clown nose on the mirror.

Wyatt, don't buy hardware man. Run VMWare fusion and build a VM. Then you don't have hardware issues to be concerned with.

Once my new server is in at the house, that's what I'll be doing.

[telijah]

Clown nose was standard, and ones without alarm can have it programmed to blink when locked. If you had an alarm, you should be getting arming chirps, but under the hood, all the way in the passenger corner by the firewall, in the little compartment, would be one of the pieces for the factory alarm.

[Dave_B]

I'll have to test after I have a key that actually works. Hopefully friday I'll know.

I heard there was something supposedly near the sunroof like a motion sensor? Any truth to that?

And I assume you mean there is a component in the drug stash area where a battery "should" be? Any idea what it looks like?

[telijah]

These are the pieces for my model (http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?model=AV53&mospid=47725&btnr=65_0486&hg=65&fg=60). I think #3, the ultrasonic detector, is what goes into the dome thing behind your sunroof.

[Dave_B]

Thanks for the diag. I'll take a look later today and see if or what I have.

Wouldn't mind installing if I can find a kit, or pieces here and there.

[telijah]

Fairly easy to install from what I understand. You have the under the hood piece, dome piece, a trunk piece, and the siren. Then it is just a matter of programming it to turn on.

[echo46]

Great thread, learned a lot. Still scratching my head a bit on the starter removal from the top. I tried, failed and got my ass under the car.

[Dave_B]

Great thread, learned a lot. Still scratching my head a bit on the starter removal from the top. I tried, failed and got my ass under the car.


I wish I had known. It's really not bad, other than the 2 starter bolts taking a while and the fatigue on your hand. Best investment on that job would be to have a GearWrench ratcheting wrench.

http://www.gearwrench.com/catalog/wrenches/ratcheting/e-torx_and_drive_adapters/beautyshot.jpg

If you read back a page or 2, I've outlined what needs to be done. My apologies for not building a DIY out of it.

Basically you remove intake boots, intake, disa, cabin filter and housing, blower motor cover and then the 2 heater hoses that go to the firewall. Also you'll need to remove the plastic "wall" that covers the ABS unit left of the Brake Booster. That should give you enough room to see this:

http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb133/00h2itr/17991E0C-3CDD-47E1-9F0A-16BBC4C337EB-4461-0000022DBEA7106B_zps45972beb.jpg

Obviously the starter is out and bolts are out in that pic however. But that's how you get to them. Snake your hand in there near the ABS unit and then towards the starter itself. If you don't have any external torx wrenches, a 3/8" standard wrench will work, but use the boxed end, not open end.

[echo46]

Good to know, hopefully I will not have to tackle this bear again for a number of years.

[aurelius]

I'll have to test after I have a key that actually works. Hopefully friday I'll know.

I heard there was something supposedly near the sunroof like a motion sensor? Any truth to that?


If a new battery in your old key does not solve your unlock issue, BMWGM5.com charges $50 to repair keys, not just replace the battery. In fact, he charges more if it has ever been cut open and even more if it has had the OE battery altered. At the very least, have a look at his key fob "wall of shame" before you replace the battery.

As for whether you have the "factory" alarm or not, AFAIK it's actually a dealer-installed option. As mentioned previously the car makes an audible beep when armed but that sound can be disabled. As for whether the sensor in the roof liner works, lock someone in the car with the windows up and see what happens. Windows down will disable that sensor and it can be permanently disabled via GT1 or autologic, which is useful if you have a dog, etc. When triggered, the alarm is crazy loud and your dog will freak.

[Dave_B]

Def. do NOT have the alarm installed. I looked in that roof console and nothing is in there.

[telijah]

I would have been shocked to find out you had an alarm with the chirping disabled.

[Dave_B]

New + Fuse 14 in.

Car continues to start. And now I can lock and unlock from a distance. :P

Now to code the light flash and chirp.

[wsmeyer]

New + Fuse 14 in.

Car continues to start. And now I can lock and unlock from a distance. :P

Now to code the light flash and chirp.

Sweet!

[danewilson77]

Sweet!

+1

Sent from the HTC DNA, Williamsburg, VA and USA

[Johnmadd]

I wonder if there's any info out there on the net, about this cheesey ass fix (kind of like hockey tape covering the SRS light)?

Lol... :shifty