https://portland.craigslist.org/mlt/...172283686.html
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I like this one. Don't ask me why. :biggrin
I wonder why ..... Lol
Looks clean to me
Yeah I emailed him sounds like he's taken good care of itQuote:
Originally Posted by BMWCurves
The ZHP had a bespoke exhaust yet they put the BMW Performance which is basically a cut away version of the ZHP and they replace the amazing M-Teknic II bespoke ZHP suspension with Koni..... That suspension was genius and what made the ZHP the best handling daily driver in the world. 2 cents.Quote:
Originally Posted by AjR89
Sounds like you're not a fan of those mods? IMO the BMWP exhaust and Koni FSDs are both tasteful mods that are an excellent addition to the car.Quote:
Originally Posted by NachoB
ZHP dampers are just standard ZSP dampers, nothing special. I can't speak to the internals of the BMWP exhaust, but at least from the outside, the mufflers look completely different.
The BMW Performance exhaust definitely has a deeper sound than the stock ZHP exhaust, which BMW claimed gave an extra 5 HP at 6,000 RPM.Quote:
Originally Posted by NachoB
https://i.imgur.com/n4IKoo6.png
That said, I think exhaust note is in the ears of the beholder.
As for the suspension, as t.er said, it was the same as the non-ZHP sport suspension. The Sachs shocks are usually dead after 50k miles, so many choose to "upgrade" to something from Koni or other manufacturers. Depends on what your definition of "better" is, but a lot of people here believe aftermarket shocks/struts perform better than the factory Sachs units.
To me, the BMWP exhaust was not much diff from the ZHP one, but not saying I have the most refined ear for that.
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Ad is gone. FWIW, I have Koni FSD on my F30 and love them. Some people have refreshed the ZHP suspension with Koni and they are very happy with the results.
Sorry for someone on this forum, I figured you would know. No. The ZHP struts where not regular sport shocks, they were bespoke and listed by Sachs Boge as MTecnik II. The problem is that many parts people don't know that, they think the MTechnik was for M3 so they send out the sport shocks regularly by mistake. This is made worse because aftermarket companies make a model to replace the regular and the sport. If you look at the Sachs Boge you will see they made a special set of shocks. If this was not a ZHP forum I wouldn't say anything but people here should know IMHO. The shocks were an amazing balance between firmness yet comfortable for daily use. That is what made the ZHP such a hit with Car and Driver etc.
In my opinion they don't. If you only experience a used ZHP with worn down parts or put sport shocks in your ZHP, you wouldn't have the right feel for what they are. I tried some on my ZHP and when I refreshed the whole suspension it was perfect. So yes upgrades are in the eye of the beholder but you have to know what you are comparing with. If you have a worn out ZHP suspension and change it to a new one it WILL feel better of course and give that impression but the stock suspension was a work of art. Not just me, people that reviewed it raved about the balance between performance and comfort and it WAS specifically tuned for ZHP whereas Koni and Bilstein are tuning theirs more generically for sport and ZHP the same.
On the exhaust I owned that exhaust and the fine print said that there would be no power increase on ZHP. I just can't find the original documenation. Same thing with the E46 BMW Performance suspension it was also not considered an upgrade to the ZHP.
As i mentioned if you have a worn ZHP suspension and refresh it with Konis yes they will feel great. But if you refreshed awiht Sachs Boge Technik II you would probably be super happy too. The FSD is nice for sure and better than a worn suspension but it was not tuned specifically for the car like the Sachs Boge MTechnik II version. I also sadly suspect that even those that went with Sachs Boge are driving around with sport package shocks. My best friend owns a german repair shop and he ordered the shocks for me his parts guy sent him sport package. I caught the mistake and sent them back and they special ordered the MTechnik II. Later he had a couple other ZHPs where different companies send the sport package ones because they are in stock an many think they are the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by fredo
Anyway Fredo stunning car. My ZHP is Mystic Blue but I always agonized because I love the Imola Red too. So the ad is down because I bought it so now I will have an Imola too.
Still sad though that my beautiful Mystic Blue got rear ended especially because it had the alcantara interior BUT this one will take some of the sting away I hope!
T.er, I looked up Sachs to get the part numbers for reference and sadly you appear correct. It appears that Sachs is no longer making the blue decal ZHP specific shocks. They make one now that says for MTechnik and Sport Package. In the past there were three separate models with a different color decal that matched the blue decal on the zhp control arms. Boo. I'll have to reach out to Sachs and see what they used for valving.. the sport valving or the ZHP valving? Sucks!
NachoB, that's big news ... congrats on your IR !
I believe these are the Sachs part numbers for ZHP shocks/struts:
Front Left = 290-949
Front Right =290-950
Rear x2 = 556-882
Do you have the Sachs Boge MTechnik II part numbers ? I wonder if they are different.
Edit: I read your post above. Please tell us what you find.
I'll crawl under my car and get the numbers off the shocks but I checked and it appears that Sachs is now making one number for both! They are listing one strut now for both M Technik and Sport. They were separate in the past they probably thought no one would care and combined both. That is why they list M-Tehnik AND Sport because they were different before. I hope they used the ZHP valving not other way around : ( My old Mystic Blue is salvage now but my son is 18 and I am teaching him to drive in it. It's going to be rough for him starting out on ZHP and later driving some crappy manual car.
Huh, live and learn - I had no idea from factory that the dampers were ZHP-specific. Too bad Sachs stopped production and consolidated the part numbers. Although I can't see myself buying Sachs dampers given that from what people say, they wear out rather quickly
The front left MTech damper is 556 873 and the right is 556 874. Today they are called Sachs Advantage and can be identified by the red sticker. Not sure how these compare to the old MTech dampers (Boge Turbo). The part number stayed the same for the fronts. The old rears were 556 884, but were replaced by 882. The new ones are Sachs Super Touring. They are 30% softer than the old Advantage, so it is literally impossible to recreate the original M package handling in 2020. They have a white sticker, which denotes the new "all-in-one" shock with lower performance. Blue stickers also denote low performance Sachs shocks. Below is a pic of the 556 873/874.Quote:
Originally Posted by fredo
Attachment 36982
Note these are the shocks for M package cars, ZHP may have been different. It's important to differentiate between ZHP and M package, as these are not the same trim.
For completeness, this is the old MTech setup, Boge fronts and Advantage rears (both no longer available). This is the setup that made the M package handle as well as it did when new. I'm not sure if the ZHP used the same shocks but it's reasonable to assume they did. Note the red sticker on all of the dampers, which identifies the high performance line of shocks (as opposed to blue or white stickers).
Attachment 36983
Edit: It's also interesting to note that the same line of shocks are built to different standards for different markets. For example, the US does not get 556 873, they get 317 542/541. It seems like the rears are the same (556 882), although many Germans are not happy that these are lower performance than the old 884s. (I don't think the US got those, does someone know what the ZHP used in the rear when new?) And before the old "US never gets the good stuff" line comes up again, the US Bilstein shocks are also different. They last significantly longer than for example German market Bilsteins. The latter are well known across the line for blowing up after 30k miles, so people speak very poorly of Bilstein over there. Sachs Advantage is used as a substitute for the B8 and for lowering springs (Koni isn't sold there).
Interesting shocks convo. Thanks for the info.
I have the perf exhaust. It's deeper and maybe slightly "louder" but not too much difference. Suits my taste perfectly. I've had loud and pop/crack/bang exhausted cars. Not for me anymore.
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Just to add to this for comparison sake...I don't have any pictures handy but I have purchased sets of the Sachs front struts that were M Technic suspension specific, and not just for the sport package. I have a set on a '05 ZHP that I rescued and rebuilt from the ground up just a few months ago. I say this because I also just installed new Koni actives on a friends ZHP, so I have basically a direct comparison between two ZHP's that have all new suspension components front and rear...plus both have new control arm bushings. The OEM Sachs struts are just fine...but the Koni's are amazing. They way they absorb bumps and how damped they feel is almost magical and absolutely a great upgrade over what would be a new stock suspension. The next ZHP I rebuild...which I just got yesterday and will be starting the rebuild soon...will likely get the Koni Actives.
Curious what the ask price was on this one. Of course I missed it in the middle of moving houses....would have been a good one to look at as i'm looking for a IR 6MT Sedan!
Ask price was $11,500 and very active.Quote:
Originally Posted by beast02er
Dang, Dang Dang... I was hoping to be wrong and save some dough.... Just drove 1500 miles in 4 days through mountain roads along 1 and 101 in Oregon and California with my son. Sorry FSD shocks just not up to snuff to the OE Sachs bespoke shocks. Just too "floaty" especially on mountain roads. I can tell a little softer and slightly less harsh than sachs but not confidence inspiring in the twisties. They have 9K miles on them too. Really bummed about that. I have to recover the budget a bit and not driving much anyway but they will have to go. No point in owning a ZHP that drives like a 325i in the twisties. If I swap them I'll look you guys up since you like them and maybe you can have a free spare set. : ) Now the real fun is finding out from Sachs which valving they used for their new combo shock for both Sport and M Technik?? I will write them and see what htey say. Hopefully they used the ZHP valving for both not the sport valving.Quote:
Originally Posted by fredo
Galapolis has more info about Sachs Advantage here:
http://www.zhpmafia.com/forums/showt...CE-SUSPENSION)
hah, thank you. So here is the latest info. I have contacted ZF that now owns Sachs but after climbing climbing under my car it appears that Sachs did have the same struts and shocks for the ZCP and ZHP packages. I have confirmed that the Sachs Boge in my blue ZHP are in fact Sachs Super Touring 900-949 and 90-950 in the front and the rear shocks are Super Touring 556-882 with the blue labels. So my apologies to anyone here.Quote:
Originally Posted by fredo
With that clarified, these are far superior to the 1 year old Koni FSDs on this red ZHP. They are fine but too floaty when canyon carving. The Sachs are much more a composed although firmer in compression and rebound. So I will go back to those. I also the rear part numbers listed Fredo, thank you. If I hear differently from ZF I will let you know. I think what happened is they used to list M-Tehnik in their catalog separately but had the same part number. And the wrong parts I received several times for comfort shocks. My bad!!
I think you will find this thread VERY INTERESTING: http://www.zhpmafia.com/forums/showt...CE-SUSPENSION)Quote:
Originally Posted by NachoB
Also thank you for sharing your experience with the FSD. I had been told that they would be a little soft for spirited driving. If even the Super Touring is that much better than the FSD, I can't wait to feel what the Advantage will feel like.
For a sportier ride more in line with the stock suspension, I always thought koni yellows were the choice and not FSDs. Love my yellows. A lot.
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Koni yellows and factory springs do provide a nice sporty ride.
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I know a handful of people have the Koni Special Active, have people done direct comparisons with the older FSDs?Quote:
Originally Posted by Vas
Thanks, yeah, I just did the entire 101 and 1 from Oregon to San Diego all mountain roads and mostly two lane stuff. The FSD is soft and floaty and I'm sure better than a work stock suspension but it doesn't feel as good as the stock Sachs Super Touring to me, especially in the mountains. I am really picky about suspensions too after many years of autocrossing and just owning good handling cars. I have a BMW 1M that is very nice but I am in love with the ZHP Stock suspension. It is sooo good. I feel it is a masterpiece and the best balance ever between sportiness without being too harsh. I have owned some great cars from my 1980 Scirocco S with Tokico Adjustables, Mk 1 GTI and GLIs, the original Sentra SE-R, sport package E46s, 1M but the ZHP tops them all in my humble opinion and the best road suspension in a sports sedan for daily driving. Again, I have no reason to put Koni down, I'm a big fan of Koni and I own the car now with brand new ones. Just owning two stock ZHPs and driving them side by side makes things stand out more. The SuperTouring is the bomb.Quote:
Originally Posted by Galapolis
Thank you all and again my apologies for being wrong about part numbers...
Yeah, I would've tried regular Koni yellows myself but so many are going to FSD that's what the owner did. I'm sure the yellows are good too I'm just in love the with my current Mystic ZHP with Sachs Super Touring. I refreshed them in 2013 around 40K miles ago and they are so reassuring. I find myself going faster around many sections than my 1M because the that one is so reassuring whereas the 1M is less reassuring. I was just pretty dissapointed with the FSDs because I really, truly wanted to like them since they are brand new and was hoping not to have to change them.
Anyway there is a lot of positive comments on the FSDs and I can say that they are a little less harsh than the super touring on bad roads but it takes so much enjoyment away for me in the twisties that it's not worth it.... for me. I am so happy with the Sachs but good to know that Koni has a viable option if Sachs quit making them.
Have you tried the Sachs Advantage?Quote:
Originally Posted by NachoB
Curious to find out how it compares to Super Tourings.
EDIT: I think you are misunderstanding something. You seem to be under the impression that Sachs doesn't make MTech dampers (red sticker) anymore. That is not totally true. The front MTech dampers still exist. I bought a set a few days ago. The rears, like you said, have been combined with sport package and are one part number now (Super Touring). That's why I ordered E36 M3 Sachs rear shocks as an alternative.
In case you didn't see my post on page 2, they didn't use either valving. ZF created a new valving that is 30% softer than the old MTech rear dampers. The fronts *should* be identical to the MTech dampers from 20 years ago though.Quote:
Originally Posted by NachoB
If your ZHP came with blue stickers on the shocks, I fear ZHPs never came with MTech dampers to begin with. The MTech dampers (Boge/Advantage) have ALWAYS had red stickers. The contemporary/latest front MTech dampers still have that red sticker. The rears, as has been said many times, are now Super Touring with a white sticker (which probably stands for combined/all-in-one).
Yeah, my original post said there WAS a bespoke set but I couldn't find the proof. Then I realized that mine has the super tourings as well which I love so I assumed I was wrong and there were never different ones. Also I thought you said the sport and ZHP were the same so I was giving up and agreeing to it. I also checked the current part numbers and BMW lists the same for sports and ZHP but that list changes sometimes. Anyway, they don't make the MTech specific ones as far as I can tell only the blue sticker. Which is OK too because it is really good and I can live with those. I would love to find the MTechs but I am very happy with the blue ones. Not happy with the FSDs though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Galapolis
Really cool of you guys to dive into this with me. We can all choose the different ones but I think as a ZHP forum we should get the correct story.
I also wrote to ZF and if I hear anything I will update everyone.
Thank you.
I think you keep missing the important parts of my post. I'm going to highlight the following part:Quote:
Originally Posted by NachoB
***START MESSAGE FOR USER NACHOB***
I found the MTech dampers. The red sticker still exists. Granted, only the fronts, but you can still buy them. I linked them in my recent thread and here on page 2.
***END MESSAGE FOR USER NACHOB***
Now whether the ZHP came with those (or rather their Boge predecessors) from factory is a different matter. There is a lot of debate about what dampers came on M package cars in the German forums as well.
As for proof, to me the mere existence of the red sticker Sachs Advantage (and previously Boge Turbo) for our cars is a pretty obvious sign that some E46s came with special MTech dampers. The question is which trims/packages/years/models received them?
If ZHPs came with the blue sticker, then I don't know which trims in America came with the red sticker. I could not find definite "proof" that European M package cars came with the red sticker MTech dampers, but in this video the guy appears to have pulled red sticker shocks from his E46 to replace the top hats. I can't tell what package his car has. On second glance it looks like MTech I (sport package prefacelift???). So this means:
- Pre-facelift sport package cars received MTech dampers. (True according to BMW part number lists/compatibility filters, although on a side note, the red stickers also listed as compatible for M Sport package II on FCP, but that doesn't necessarily mean that those cars came with MTech dampers from factory, only that they are compatible. It also suggests that European M package cars got MTech dampers but not the ZHP, because the ZHP is the Performance Package, not M Sport, but this might just be a generalization or error/inaccuracy in naming so I wouldn't read too much into it.)
- ZHPs received Super Touring.
- M package received probably Super Touring? Maybe MTech? The answer is unclear on this one.
It makes some sense though. The M package and ZHP package only arrived later in the lifecycle of the E46 (can't remember the exact dates but I think M package started in late 2001 or early 2002 and ZHP started sometime 2003). So we are talking about different trims available for different years.
Now, early E46s (1998, 1999) were criticized for being "soft". In response, BMW (according to internal memos) upgraded the dampers sometime in 2000. This is probably when the sport package received the MTech dampers. The sport package E46 was available in America at this time as well (mid 2000), which is probably why the red sticker dampers are available in the US even today. They are spare parts meant for those very specific 2000/2001 sport package cars that received the upgraded suspension in response to the criticism.
MY SPECULATION (I have no proof) is that the E46 as a whole was never meant to get red sticker/high performance dampers, BUT, in order to appease critics in a time BEFORE a dedicated performance package (ZHP, M Technik II) existed, BMW decided to TEMPORARILY equip the sportier trims with the fabled MTech dampers (red sticker).
Then, when they released the M package and later ZHP, they offered re-engineered Super Touring line shocks that were more in line with BMWs original vision for the E46, offering better comfort than the red sticker and higher performance than the old softer shocks that people criticized. But because a bunch of E46s were now out there in the world with red sticker dampers, Sachs would of course have to continue providing spare parts for them, hence why we can still buy red sticker MTech dampers.
I'm sure Sachs isn't too happy about all this complication, which MIGHT explain why they tried to combine shocks and recently did exactly that with the MTech rears, merging them with the Super Touring rears to create one part to replace both the old red sticker rears and blue sticker rears. There is now only one white sticker rear.
At the end of the day, I don't know how long BMW used the MTech dampers and if they really were only available on certain 2000/2001 models or if some later cars received them too. But I have one final funny thought: Ever wondered why we call the red sticker Sachs "MTech" dampers? Maybe it's because they came on cars with the MTech I body kit? Wouldn't that tie my theory together nicely? Still only speculation, but the takeaway here is:
MTech dampers are real.
Some E46s had MTech dampers.
You can still buy the front MTech dampers right here.
We need to get together and have a beer some day!. Nice to see someone else as obsessive as me about this stuff!Quote:
Originally Posted by Galapolis
I'm still confused a but here are two things that are clear for me. I am very happy and impressed with the super-touring Sachs. The FSD Koni are too floaty for a ZHP. I think if I rip out the FSDs from the new ZHP I just got and can't figure out the matching ZHP Sachs parts, I will go with SuperTouring again because as I mentioned I love them and I don't risk getting a mismatched set or something to stiff. I already have a 1M that is really stiff on the terrible SoCal roads.
The other thing I have learned from this is that if poeple only drove a ZHP with the FSDs or bad suspension, they don't understand the magic. My Blue ZHP is refreshed and really tight and I remember commenting how impressed I was by it on the 1 series forum and another member said he drove a ZHP once and wasn't impressed. I thought that's weird but now I see. If someone only drove something like the Red one with soft floaty FSD they wouldn't be impressed and the strength of my conviction comes from the fact that I have two refreshed suspension ZHPs in my driveway right now, one with Sachs Super Touring and one with Koni FSD that I can compare side by side and it's no contest. My son just go his driving license and I'm teaching him to drive manual. He drove with me from Oregon to San Diego to bring the red one home. He knows very little about cars and he commented on his own how the blue one just turns in when he thinks about it and the Red one seems a little slower.
Anyway, thanks again for sharing all of this info. We should do a SoCal ZHP meet some day when all of this is over.
Like I mentioned in the other thread, that's not gonna happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by NachoB
Super Tourings are no more. Sachs literally discontinued all their dampers, replacing all of them with white stickers.
So there is no more Advantage and no more Super Touring. At this point, it also looks like the US never even got the MTech dampers to begin with. I think it was a Euro option only, or if the US did get them, they were only available on a limited run of sports package cars, but not the ZHP.
There's still a lot of confusion. I should really delete that previous post, it's basically all useless with the new information I got today, but I'll leave it up for now.
In any case, everyone gets the same white sticker part now. No more names which is weird for Sachs. I'm inclined to call them "Super Betrayals." Still looking forward to trying them out though. Also I'd be interested in more ZHP meetups. SoCal is a little far from me though.
Galapolis, can you give link and/or part numbers for these rear E36 M3 shocks you mention?
Also...thanks to all parties for having a deep-dive conversation on what seems like minutia, without immediately turning it into a wiener-size competition. So refreshing to see these days, and why this forum is so great!
https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/bmw...m3-e36-290-816Quote:
Originally Posted by GMBBS
Gentlemen on a different matter, this car has a amazingly clean black leather interior with heated seats and folding rear seat. I am thinking of putting alacantara interior in it. What do you think a black all leather no rip not cracked leather interior would fetch? Any thoughts?